{"id":49355,"date":"2026-07-24T13:06:00","date_gmt":"2026-07-24T20:06:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/occupysf.net\/?p=49355"},"modified":"2026-07-24T13:06:01","modified_gmt":"2026-07-24T20:06:01","slug":"loving-sports-in-an-age-of-authoritarians-a-conversation-with-dave-zirin-and-jules-boykoff","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/2026\/07\/24\/loving-sports-in-an-age-of-authoritarians-a-conversation-with-dave-zirin-and-jules-boykoff\/","title":{"rendered":"Loving sports in an age of authoritarians: A conversation with Dave Zirin and Jules Boykoff"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/therealnews.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/07\/GettyImages-2287185347-scaled.jpg?fit=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1\" alt=\"FIFA President Gianni Infantino and U.S. President Donald Trump in conversation after the award ceremony during the FIFA World Cup 2026 Final match between Spain and Argentina at New York New Jersey Stadium on July 19, 2026 in East Rutherford, New Jersey. Photo by Alex Pantling - FIFA\/FIFA via Getty Images\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Posted in<a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/category\/sections\/politics-movements-us\">Politics and Movements: US<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Love the World Cup but hate FIFA? Love professional sports but hate the billionaires, gambling companies, and authoritarians ruining them? You\u2019re not alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>by\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/maximillian-alvarez\">Maximillian Alvarez<\/a><\/strong>,\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/dave-zirin\">Dave Zirin<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0and\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/jules-boykoff\">Jules Boykoff<\/a><\/strong> July 22, 2026 (therealnews.com)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>FIFA President Gianni Infantino and U.S. President Donald Trump in conversation after the award ceremony during the FIFA World Cup 2026 Final match between Spain and Argentina at New York New Jersey Stadium on July 19, 2026 in East Rutherford, New Jersey. Photo by Alex Pantling &#8211; FIFA\/FIFA via Getty Images<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><a href=\"https:\/\/mailchi.mp\/therealnews\/sms-signup\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/therealnews.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/03\/Subtext-button.jpg?resize=1024%2C320&amp;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-342358\"\/><\/a><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>Podcast:  <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/7IplC1NtQR4CdbWCtApr42?si=0aa34629b06047db&amp;utm_source=oembed\">https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/7IplC1NtQR4CdbWCtApr42?si=0aa34629b06047db&amp;utm_source=oembed<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For many around the US and around the world, the World Cup was a welcome distraction from the dismal state of the world and the daily overwhelm of relentless war, corruption, fascism, and disaster. But the games were also an uncomfortable reminder that, no matter how much we love sports and want them to be an escape from politics and the pain of living in a broken society, there is no way to truly escape those things, and the manufactured illusion that sports are an escape from political reality is just that: an illusion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>At a live event hosted on July 16, 2026, at Chilo\u2019s bar in New York City, TRNN Editor-in-Chief Maximillian Alvarez spoke with legendary sportswriters Dave Zirin and Jules Boykoff about what it means to love sports in an age of authoritarians.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Additional links\/info:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul>\n<li>Chilo\u2019s bar&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.chilosbk.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">website<\/a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/instagram.com\/chilosbk\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Instagram<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Jules Boykoff, OR Books,&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/orbooks.com\/catalog\/red-card\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Red Card: The 2026 World Cup, Sportswashing, and the FIFA Greed Machine<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Dave Zirin, Penguin Randomhouse,&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.penguinrandomhouse.com\/books\/724993\/the-peoples-historian-by-dave-zirin\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The People\u2019s Historian: The Outsized Life of Howard Zinn<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Credits:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul>\n<li>Audio Post-Production: Alina Nehlich<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Transcript<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Welcome back to the Real News Network. I\u2019m Maximillian Alvarez. The 2026 World Cup is now officially over after Spain defeated Argentina in the final match on Sunday. And for many of us around the US and around the world, the World Cup was a very welcome distraction from the ambient awfulness and doom and the daily delugion overwhelm of relentless war, corruption, fascism and disaster. But the games were also an uncomfortable reminder that no matter how much we love sports and the global spectacle of the World Cup, no matter how much we want them to be an escape from politics and the pain of living in a broken society, there\u2019s just no way to truly escape those things. And the manufactured illusion that sports are somehow an escape from political reality is just that, an illusion. So what do we do with that? How do we square our love for sports and all the beautiful things and experiences that we get from sports with all these gross, exploitative and societally destructive facets of sports today?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hat does it mean to love sports in a disenchanted age of authoritarians, war and climate catastrophe? These are the kinds of questions that I got to dig into with legendary sports writers, book authors and real news contributors, Dave Zyron and Jules Boykoff at a live event that we hosted at Chilo\u2019s Bar in Brooklyn, New York, just days before the World Cup final. And what you\u2019re about to listen to is the audio recording of our discussion for that live event.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The name of this event is Loving Sports in an Age of Authoritarians. And we\u2019ll get to the authoritarians by way of this first question, but it\u2019s so much bigger than just any one authoritarian. How do we continue to love sports and the other things that we love when everything that we know is burning around us literally? We had to move this event inside because the fires in Ontario that literally wiped a First Nation off the map are making the air toxic to breathe. So how do we continue loving sports in a time like that? Dave Zirin, softball to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, first of all, I wasn\u2019t told there would be science at this event. Second, very quick joke my grandfather once told me that tries to answer that very heavy question. Guy goes to visit a buddy. Buddy opens the door. His buddy is naked wearing a top hat. And he said, \u201cDude, why are you naked?\u201d And he said, \u201cNobody visits me. \u201d And then he says, \u201cThen why are you wearing a top hat?\u201d And he said, \u201cSomeone might visit.\u201d And that\u2019s how I feel about sports and the environment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let me make that leap for a second. It\u2019s because we are in trouble. Dude is naked. Everything is out in the open. We can\u2019t breathe outside for goodness sakes. And yet sports presents this face like everything\u2019s okay. Look at these incredibly fit young people running around the field, loving the fresh air on the greenfield and then off the field you have environmental catastrophe. And we need to be able to reckon with that because honestly, we\u2019re not going to have outdoor sports. We\u2019re not going to have winter sports unless we do something about this environment. And frankly, I think that\u2019s a way to reach sports fans is to say to them, if you really care about sports, then you\u2019re going to care about climate change. If you really care about sports, then you should care about fossil fuels. You should care about the World Cup and the kind of footprint it puts down on our world just by the wealthiest of the wealthy flying their private planes into these different cities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I think it\u2019s really important that we have one eye in the environment of all time and not just to save humanity, but actually let\u2019s talk to sports fans and say, if you really want to save sports, you\u2019re going to be on this side of the question too. And so that\u2019s the top hat, that\u2019s the naked guy. I don\u2019t think I made the connection, but we try.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Love it, love it, love it. So on the topic of climate change and this World Cup, a couple quick facts. This is the most polluting World Cup in the history of men\u2019s World Cups or women\u2019s World Cups. And that\u2019s because FIFA decided to hold it in three countries and include 48 teams, which is more than ever up from 32. And also because one of the countries, the United States, just doesn\u2019t have a good train system to get people around. So everybody, if you want to get from Kansas City to your next game in San Francisco, you basically have to fly. So the lower end estimates are like nine million tons of carbon dioxide equivalent and that\u2019s a low estimate. Meanwhile, we got Giannian Fontino out here on his private jet crisscrossing North America. Yeah, thank you. Big boo for Giannian Fontino. And he even went to Qatar for a funeral the other day and then zipped back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the leadership is very much not coming from the top. But to build off what Dave was saying, I\u2019m really interested in this idea that we can be more politically effective sometimes by being less explicitly political. And we\u2019re living in a moment where we sort of have two models of that happening simultaneously. In New York City, since we\u2019re here, I\u2019ll mention Zoran Mamdani. Where was he watching a football match, soccer match yesterday or the other day in a local prison? And opening up conversations about kind of what that means, what\u2019s the life of an incarcerated person? How can we bring sports into their lives as a positive? Then you have on the other side, one of the big topics of my book, which is Donald Trump and how he is the president in the United States that has used sports to his political advantage more than any in the modern era.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we have two models of using sports toward political aims while not necessarily being explicitly political. And the last thing I\u2019ll just say on this question is I\u2019m wearing a Bosnia shirt. I was in Bosnia recently. I spent more than a month in Sarajevo and it was an exciting time to be there because the team had just qualified for the World Cup for the first time in a long time. The energy was really good in the city. And when I was there, I went to the Genocide Museum. And what struck me about the place was that there were so many exhibits at the museum that talked about the importance of soccer. There was one that literally was titled Soccer Saved My Life. There was another that talked about people in Shrebanitza that were huddling around a black and white television during the 1994 World Cup watching Roberto Baggio and getting this glimmer of joy in an increasingly difficult time for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So if they can do it in Bosnia and stick with sports and figure out how to use sports to their political advantage, and they\u2019re definitely doing that in Bosnia, we can surely come together to attack the issue of climate change through sport with everyday people and talk about how it affects their everyday lives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Oh yeah. Two quick thoughts or a thought and a question. Thought because I couldn\u2019t agree with you more, Jules, about we can be more politically effective by being less obsessed with politics. And I really identify with what you said there because this is a question I get all the time as someone who goes around interviewing just regular working people across the political spectrum around this country every week. And people come up to me, they\u2019re like, \u201cHow do you do it? How do you talk to people? \u201d I\u2019m going to answer that question for all of you right now. Just be a person. Just don\u2019t be weird. Just be chill. Just be interested in other people. I don\u2019t know how to explain that. It\u2019s just like you don\u2019t got to beat people over the head with politics. Just talk to them as human beings, connect on what you connect on and go from there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And for a lot of us, that is sports. I have some of the deepest political conversations with my buddies that I grew up with back home who live very different lives than I do or like the guys I worked in the warehouses and factories and restaurants with than I\u2019ve had in academia. Because you start with sports and then you get into some real heavy shit real quick. So I couldn\u2019t endorse that more. And to get spicy for a second, because again, this is a live bar debate. I want to push you both on the question of sports and climate because everything you said really resonated with me. But sports is also one of the most important cultural dream manufacturing or false dream manufacturing mechanisms that we have in society. And sports is where people are being trained to see that you can just build a dome and play in freezing weather or blazing heat.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So what do you say to someone who says, \u201cHey, we could have a World Cup in Qatar. It doesn\u2019t matter how many brown people die to make it happen, but why don\u2019t we just do that? \u201c<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s a great question. I would say to the person, first of all, you think we\u2019re having a sports conversation? We\u2019re actually having a politics conversation Because you\u2019re talking about a set of political priorities that are not in the best interest of the people in Qatar or on the world if you think that that\u2019s the way sports is going to be sustainable. I would say to them that what you are promoting is an incredibly elitist view of sports where the only people who really get to play are the super professionals who are in this climate controlled atmosphere because they can produce profit while the rest of us just become watchers. And honestly, we have too much of that in this country right now.This is the statistic I hate the most. 60% of kids who play youth sports quit by the age of 12. And when they\u2019re asked why they quit at the age of 12, it\u2019s always because they\u2019re told that they\u2019re not good enough to keep playing when they\u2019re 13, 14, 15.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so then they become either the watchers or they become alienated from things like exercise, community, frankly, some of the things that make life worth living. And so sports should never be the province of experts. It should never be the province of the super skilled. Sports should be for everyone as a baseline for what we\u2019re arguing for in this country. Sports for all. And so people who make the climate controlled argument are actually arguing sports for few. So I would be calling them out. You\u2019re actually making a political argument that is actually not only dooming humanity, but it\u2019s dooming our kids to a life of actually being alienated from what makes life worth living.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah. Absolutely. So I think that the sports world needs to grapple with this idea of the mega. We\u2019re now living in the era \u2013 Not the mega.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that too, actually. Okay. But the mega, M-E-G-A. What I mean is we\u2019re living in this moment of the VVIP, this new thing, the very, very important person. We\u2019re also living in the era of the mega, mega sporting event. And the truth of the matter is this is not at all. It\u2019s like an oxymoron to call it mega event sustainable. It\u2019s just never going to be that. And so we need to have conversations about how do you reduce the size? Gianni and Fontino talked about making the next World Cup 64 teams instead of 48 teams, which will just make worse what we\u2019re talking about right now. And they\u2019ll come back at us when we say, \u201cOh, well, how about just going back to 32 or at least just keeping it at 48?\u201d They\u2019ll say, \u201cOh, but we\u2019re trying to include more teams.\u201d And of course that\u2019s true, but right behind it is bubbling their cauldron of money and that\u2019s all to their benefit to have more teams, more games, more $30 million per game went into FIFA coffers at each one of these games just from tickets alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the truth of the matter is that they\u2019re kind of actually giving an argument that\u2019s both weak and somewhat trying to seem like they\u2019re not racist, but actually are racist. And here\u2019s what I mean. They\u2019ll point to teams like Kate Vaird who was wonderful. If you didn\u2019t watch the World Cup, they were one of the most exciting stories. And they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, do you want to not include Cape Vaird at the World Cup now after these wonderful stories of all their triumphs?\u201d Cape Vaird finished first in their group. They were coming to the tournament, whether there was 32 teams, maybe even 24 teams. So don\u2019t tell me Cape Verde wasn\u2019t qualifying. They\u2019re a legit team. A lot of soccer people weren\u2019t at all surprised. So thinking about how do we both make it more of a public good sports, but also shrinking it and moving some of the money from the shrinkage to what you\u2019re talking about, addressing the fact that so many kids drop outs too early because that\u2019s a tragedy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, let\u2019s stick on that for a second. I love the sports for all in sports is a public good. So sticking with the bar debate theme, in the socialist utopia, what is the world of professional sports going to look like? Are sports teams going to be publicly owned utilities? What is the better version of this shit look like that can still retain the things that we love, but isn\u2019t draped in all this awful shitty stuff that makes us hate the things we love?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah. I mean, for sports in a socialist utopia. I mean, first I\u2019d be so happy in the socialist utopia. I\u2019d be like, \u201cOh yeah, there\u2019s sports on. Cool.\u201d Which would be sort of like the opposite of my current life, which is, \u201cOh, there\u2019s sports on. Good. The world is burning. Ah, sports is on. \u201d So I think it would take that and sort of stand it on its head, which would be nice, I must say. But I think more than anything, I mean, there are things that are wrong with the sports world now that I could say in even a democratic, socialist, capitalist country, we\u2019re going to do away with the public funding of stadiums and saying like, \u201cLook, you\u2019re a billionaire, James Dolan. You want refurbishing a Madison Square Garden? Find the money between the cushions of your couch and take care of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Don\u2019t ask the taxpayers to do it for you. \u201d So real demands like that. Second of all, if even $1 of public money goes into a sports team or a stadium, guess what? That team becomes $1 public. So it\u2019s like the more public money that goes in, the more we own the teams. And if they want all the money for their stadiums, guess what? Your team has just become the most effective public utility in the city of New York. Congratulations, you\u2019re making the city billions. Our schools are now funded. All is good. And I\u2019m so sorry, James Dolan, you only get one yacht, but somehow I think you\u2019ll survive. James Dolan\u2019s son, by the way, 32 years old, is now in charge of the New York Rangers. I think that makes him the first grand Nepo baby in doing that. So horrible people. Just the worst.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And one other thing I would say is I think this idea of sports for all, we can be very specific for people right now of what that means. It\u2019s not just about ability. It\u2019s an anti-racist argument. It\u2019s an anti-sexist argument. It\u2019s an anti-anti-poor people argument who are denied sports, denied physical education in so many public schools. We would have full funding for physical education throughout the country. And I think this is very vital. We would never in any sort of just society tell our transgender family that they have no place on the playing field, which is the official position, by the way, of this government and the International Olympic Committee. So there\u2019s so much we can do. And this could be the sort of thing where we have on a whiteboard behind me with a pen, with a dry erase, be like, \u201cWhat actually do you hate about sports?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hat makes it hard for you to love sports? And what about the corporate control do you hate? What about the bigotry do you hate? Native American mascotry, let us know. \u201d And those are actually the things we can begin to check off and say, \u201cLet\u2019s have a better sports world, sports for all, sports in the name of justice and sports in the name of fun.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Absolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Absolutely. And now is a perfectly opportune time to try some of these things where you have owners of football clubs, soccer clubs in places like Vancouver, Canada that it\u2019s rare that you see an owner advertising their own lack of skills saying, \u201cI can\u2019t possibly run this club unless I get a huge infusion of public money.\u201d At a time when you\u2019ve got people like Avi Lewis in Canada, political leader talking about re-nationalizing some industries, this is a perfect moment for doing that with a football club. Why not experiment? We tried to do this in Portland, Oregon where I usually live. When the owners of the team, a guy named Henry Paulson, former treasury secretary under George W. Bush and his son, Dave loves this, his name is Merritt Paulson.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He\u2019s like, \u201cThat\u2019s made up. Come on. Son of a billionaire is named Merritt. Come on now.\u201d Yeah,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s \u2013<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Just like meritocracy\u2019s made up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, that\u2019s a great point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So many years ago when Portland got a major league soccer team, they were asking for $85 million in public money to refurbish the stadium. $85 million. That was going to come out of the budget where we fill our potholes. Some of it was going to schools, homeless services, you name it. And a lot of people fought back. Actually, Dave Zyron came to town and fought back next to us. And we didn\u2019t totally win the struggle. They didn\u2019t get $85 million. Instead, they got $12.9 million from a special tax from the Portland Trailblazers. So it was like sport to sport. But we did have a good conversation about what a publicly owned team could look like. And I just cannot wait to get fully behind the city that decides to go for it. I think Vancouver\u2019s a possibility, but anywhere that happens, I want to be there trying to do what we can to help.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hell<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah. Hell yeah. I love this. And we\u2019re doing good on time so far, but I did want to give everyone their mandatory. FIFA is requiring that I let you know that this is your hydration break. So please go to the bar, stay hydrated, stay safe.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We\u2019re going to get to and zero in on the World Cup, the authoritarians and the stink of Trump on the Knicks NBA finals victory. But by way of getting there, I want to focus in on again, another aspect of the sports for all discussion that really doesn\u2019t get talked enough about, especially in leftist spaces, but I don\u2019t think at all. Because the only time we\u2019re talking about youth sports these days is when a bunch of weirdos obsess over the genitals of some of our children who are playing them. And that\u2019s not what youth sports was to me. It was my life. It was like the place where I found my motivation, where I learned to work on a team where my dad coached my brothers and then he coached me. It was like youth sports so much a part of me and will always be a part of me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the older I\u2019ve gotten and especially after I blew out my knee playing basketball and I lost basketball, the thing that I had played three to four times a week every week for my whole life, like countless hours in the driveway with my dad and my brothers was gone. And I\u2019ve realized since that a huge chunk of my life was gone after that. Where else in my life do I walk up to strangers and say, \u201cHey, you got next? Can I play with you? \u201d And then you play with people that you don\u2019t know. You have to learn in a finite space with rules quickly what everyone\u2019s strengths and weaknesses are accomplishing a shared goal or not. It\u2019s such a rarefied space and experience that I think so many of us need, whether it\u2019s in organized sports or just more play. And so I wanted to throw this to you guys because I don\u2019t think I get to hear you talk enough about the human good of sport beyond just the professional sports world and capitalist shit show that most people see on their TVs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Oh man. So what I love about sports, I mean, oh man, I had to give a toast for my dad on his 80th birthday. And I was trying to think of what do I possibly say about this 80-year-old guy who\u2019s had such an impact on my life? And the first thing that came to my head is like, when did my dad ever mean the most to me in my entire life? And it was like, when was this moment? Because my parents were divorced. I saw my dad like four days a month growing up. So it\u2019s like where was that real spot for us? And it was game six, 1986 World Series, Mookie Wilson, Ground Ball, Bill Buckner\u2019s legs. You\u2019d say to a baseball fan, game six, that\u2019s all you have to say. And they know what you\u2019re talking about. My dad took me there and I still have the ticket stub.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It says $15 to go to the best World Series game. And he got that ticket not by getting on his phone because back then phones were these mammoth contraptions attached to walls, but he got it by waiting online at Shea Stadium. And we got to go to this game and then we got the game of all games. And when that ball went through Bill Buckner\u2019s legs, I went from being happier than I could ever remember being to being terrified because that stadium got so loud and grownups got so crazy. And that was before they stopped selling beer after the seventh inning. And we\u2019re in extra innings at this point. And my dad just put his arm around me and held me close. And it was a moment where I never felt both more imperiled and then more safe in a moment. And I feel like there\u2019s something about\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that kind of hooked me for life on sports. Playing basketball for the New York City fighting Quakers in high school is also an experience unto itself. You didn\u2019t want to mess with the fight in Quakers. And me being a five foot 10 inch center for that team.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They called you white chocolate thunder?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They called me, why the hell is he here? The one story I\u2019ll tell is I was playing one game against a freshman for Rice named Felipe Lopez who went on to become the number one recruited player in the country. He was in ninth grade. I was in 11th grade. That was their JV. They were playing our varsity. And I shot the ball and Felipe blocked it to half court, literally to half court. And the whole crowd goes. And I hung my head. I was so embarrassed. And he put his arm around me and walked me to half court and was just like, \u201cIt\u2019s okay, man. I do that to everybody. Do not take it personal.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I met him as a sports writer. I met him 20 years later and I said, \u201cYo man, you blocked my shot to half court and then you put your arm around me. It\u2019s a memory I\u2019ll never forget.\u201d And he looked at me and he said, \u201cYeah, I don\u2019t remember that at all. \u201d And I was like, \u201cOh.\u201d And he said, \u201cYou got to understand, I just blocked a lot of people. \u201d That was kind of my move. And I was like, \u201cOkay, all good still.\u201d So that\u2019s why I love sports. I chose to show rather than tell. I love it. I love it. But you give me a good moment in a rocky relationship with my dad or a great moment and you give me Felipe Lopez blocking my shot, couldn\u2019t be happier. That\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I\u2019m really interested in when creative people who don\u2019t necessarily consider themselves athletes engage the space of sports, bringing their creativity to it. And one of my favorite places for this is roller derby in Portland, Oregon where I live, where from the names that people adopt that are freighted with beautiful politics and fight back in them to the very format of the event and to the very nature of its inclusion, because trans folks are always included on the skating rink in Portland, Oregon. It\u2019s a really big part of the culture. Not only that, it\u2019s also a great chance for fundraising for those kind of causes at the local level. So I\u2019m always about how can we use creative people\u2019s minds to come up with new ways of doing things? How can we have the soccer fields open in New York City all night long, which has been happening recently during the World Cup?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maybe the World Cup is just an entry into having that be something that we do more often. We\u2019ve heard about midnight basketball. I love this idea of midnight soccer as well. So I just think that to build off what you\u2019re saying, this is a really fruitful area where we can all come together and think collectively and make some really magical things happen for sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hell<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah. Jules, how do you not say that you played pro soccer? I was<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Going to say you\u2019re bearing the lead, bro.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Just give everybody your resume. I said I played basketball for the fight in Quakers. I\u2019m not saying you can total that, but you should try.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>No, it\u2019s true. I did play soccer for a big part of my life. And honestly, that is one of the many reasons why I think it\u2019s worth fighting for. I had a nice professional soccer career and I also played for the US under 23 men\u2019s national soccer team. Although before you get too excited about that, the last international match that I played for the US national soccer team at the U23 level was literally against the Soviet Union. But yeah, I mean, I\u2019m not proud necessarily of who I was back then because I was an absolute maniac in ways that weren\u2019t always good for me and the people around me, but it is definitely part of my life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But you stuck it to Khrushchev. And for that, America, thanks you, sir.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thank you for your service. Well, I really appreciate you guys going with me and sharing that because I thought that was so powerful and again, made me feel closer to you in a way that our discussions about politics haven\u2019t. And I think that\u2019s kind of the point of why we\u2019re all here. But I think it\u2019s also really important to share with others out there, even those in our lives who don\u2019t get why we love sports. And it\u2019s not because we just are okay with ignoring all of the military jets flying over or Donald Trump\u2019s bulletproof bullshit, a booth at the Knicks game. It\u2019s that this thing we\u2019ve loved for so long and have carried into our love for watching it and others do it. We\u2019re holding onto that while it\u2019s getting shrouded in so much crap. And that just makes it complicated for I think a lot of us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But let\u2019s sort of take that into the vibe and time that we\u2019re in now where a lot of us are struggling with that, be it this great city during a game that was so special to it that Donald Trump put his stink on or folks around the world who loved the World Cup and have now know what that stink smells like and so much else. So let\u2019s talk about the big title of the event here.First, how do we carry that love into sports today, especially the World Cup in a time like the one that we\u2019re living in now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Wow. It\u2019s a great question. I mean, the number one thing I say is like, look, the Knicks were ours long before they were the property of the Dawn family. That\u2019s our team, not theirs. At best, they are renting it. It\u2019s our team, not the team of somebody who got married at Mar-a-Lago, whose kid got married at Mar-a-Lago, who\u2019s trying to change the name of Penn Station to Trump Penn Station and who\u2019s given Trump millions of dollars throughout his political career. And even the worst indictment of all counts Donald Trump as a close personal friend. So these are all reasons to say, wait a minute, you\u2019re not part of what we just want. And something you didn\u2019t really get on TV during the parade, which I was at, I mean for the Knicks, by the way, Knicks in five, just throwing that out there, is that it was so raucous.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>People were so incredibly pumped and enthused. And Mayor Mamdani, he gets up there and he does a sports speech that rivals like the Al Pacino speech in any given Sunday where he\u2019s like, \u201cYour claw for that inch.\u201d The Pacino, your fingers plead for that inch. And here\u2019s Mamdani up there. He\u2019s saying like, \u201cThey gave us a 0.4% chance of winning when we were down 29. That\u2019s what the statistician said. Well, guess what? You tell New Yorkers they have a 0.4% 10% chance they say, \u201cWhy are you giving me a head start?\u201d I mean, I\u2019m hearing this and I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah, let me bash my head through the TV screen right now.\u201d And then James Dolan gets up there and it was the only time of the whole day they cut this at people booed when he got up there. Here\u2019s the Knicks winning the championship and people booed the owner.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And he gets up there and he says something completely snarky about Mamdani and it just didn\u2019t fly. But that\u2019s just to say it shows his alienation from the vibe and mood of the city. And if he wasn\u2019t alienated from how this city was really feeling, he would never have invited Donald Trump to be there at game three when we finally had a home game in a finals at MSG in 27 years. That\u2019s when you invite Donald Trump so it can be all about him and not the people themselves. Give me a break. And of course that\u2019s the one game they lose in the last three rounds of the playoffs. But what\u2019s so amazing about it is that people sort of get that. And then when he doubled up with the US Men\u2019s World Cup team and tried to rig things for them, it\u2019s that stink that he brings to the table.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>My buddy calls what Trump does, he calls it athletic fracking environment. He doesn\u2019t like sports at all. He wants to drill into it, destroy it, destroy everything around it if he can just get a drop of political benefit. So athletic fracking would not exist in a socialist utopia of a society. And frankly, in any sort of utopia, whatever you want to brand it, Donald Trump and the Trump family wouldn\u2019t exist either. Or at the very least they\u2019d be, shall we say, put in their place. But just one thing before I pass this to Jules, I got to tell a story about a very quick conversation I had with Lev in the back in the orange shirt, just to give you an idea about what sports could mean. If I could, he\u2019s in the orang shirt.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I\u2019ll be real quick. I\u2019ve been having a difficult year, if you will, or a decade, whatever you want to call it. And I was sitting with Lev the other day and I said to Lev, I said, \u201cThe last couple of months have actually been a lot better. I\u2019m feeling really good. I don\u2019t know why that is, but I\u2019m just really doing better.\u201d And Lev\u2019s silent for a second and he just looks at me and he says, \u201cThe Knicks.\u201d And I realized he was fucking right that having this run had this animating effect on so many other things in my life. And that\u2019s, I guess in some ways that makes me just a weirdo, a diehard fan, somebody off the beam, whatever you want to call it. But I think it also kind of made me feel human for a second because it\u2019s like I felt connected with the city in a way that I hadn\u2019t, honestly, since nine eleven, but instead of it being this moment of abject tragedy, it was a moment of joy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Wow. That\u2019s beautiful. That\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And Jules, if I may, just to throw a little extra bit of sauce before you hop in, it\u2019s not just Trump, right? It\u2019s Kash Patel jumping around like an idiot with the men\u2019s hockey team. As someone who you wore that jersey, does that piss you off? I mean, we don\u2019t ever get to hear from your side of that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah. We often don\u2019t get to hear from the athlete side of things despite the fact that they\u2019ve got social media at their fingertips. There\u2019s often a hesitancy to push back at things like ash Patel. And I think you make a good point, although the Trump curse is very real. I mean, talk to Harry Kane about it. He went golfing 18 months ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And people were blaming Trump for them<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Losing. Well, then he didn\u2019t score after it was about the golf. I\u2019m saying the Trump curse has many, many forms there. But yes \u2013<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave calls it the reverse Midas Touch. Absolutely. And that it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I tried calling it the Trump Taint, but for a lot of reasons, not just\u2026 My editor at the nation was like, \u201cNo. We\u2019re not doing that. \u201c<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah. Very good call. Very good call. By the way. But you do make the really important point that it\u2019s not just Trump himself and the Trump curse. It\u2019s the Trump administration that is really doing this sort of athletic fracking that you\u2019re talking about. The Cash Patel\u2019s a really good example from the recent Olympics and the hockey team and sort of attaching themselves like a barnacle on the side of the ship that won that gold medal. But I mean, you\u2019ve even seen during this World Cup a number of instances that maybe aren\u2019t as high profile. Everyone knows about the Fuller and Balagun red card that President Trump made some phone calls to his BFF over at FIFA, Gianni and Fontino. And lo and behold, the thing gets overturned first time during a World Cup since 1962. The predecessor using that rule was Christiano Ronaldo a few months ago so that he could play in the World Cup because they wanted him even though he has credible allegations of rape in the United States against him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it was a horrible thing there all around. But what I\u2019m trying to say is that it\u2019s not just Trump, it\u2019s also the administration. Think about the Department of Homeland Security during this very event. After the United States beat Australia, they went on Twitter, DHS did, and they posted two really interesting and terrifying tweets. One of them had three of the players on the tweet, a picture of them. And then behind them it said one homeland. It was basically short of just saying blood and soil. And it was like total pure fascism. And experts in fascism jumped up and said, \u201cWow, that sounds like a lot like a phrase that Nazis would\u2019ve said.\u201d And then they actually traced it out and it was very similar to a phrase used during World War II by Nazis. And I think it\u2019s really interesting for a number of reasons and obviously disturbing for a number of reasons.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But if you\u2019re going to talk about sportswashing, and I do talk about sportswashing in the book and more widely, and so maybe I should just define my term really quickly before I go into it for a sec. But sportswashing for me is when political leaders use sports to try to deflect attention from chronic social problems and human rights woes at home, to try to look important or legitimate on the world stage and to set themselves up for political, economic, sometimes diplomatic advancement. And a lot of people don\u2019t like the term because of the way it\u2019s been used in the past, which quite frankly has been done in an ethnocentric, if not xenophobic fashion where they say it\u2019s those countries over there, Russia, China, Qatar that engages in sportswashing, but we are a democracy so it couldn\u2019t possibly happen here. So part of the argument in the book is that even places that consider themselves democracies can very much engage in sportswashing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But what is Trump doing here in terms of is he trying to\u2026 Does sportswashing work? When people talk about does sportswashing work, a lot of times they mean does it work on an international audience? And the truth is Trump has very little interest in having sportswashing work on an international audience. He makes it clear with his actions. He doesn\u2019t care what Europe thinks, Africa thinks, Asia, Latin America. He doesn\u2019t care what they all think. But that sometimes misses the key audience of people in this country who I think are the prime audience for Trumpian sportswashing and for the DHS tweets. And when Trump keeps the Somali referee, Omar Abdul-Kadir Artan out of the country, he doesn\u2019t care what the rest of the world thinks and they very much didn\u2019t like it. But he likes the fact that the MAGA base sees a guy sticking it to a Somali person who, as you\u2019ll know, he talked as trash and garbage in the past.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So when all these things are happening, if you look at it through the lens of Trump trying to cater to people here in this country ahead of a key election, everything starts to make a lot more sense through the lens of sportswashing. And so I think it also gives us this incredible opportunity to see things with clarity and to also kind of figure out how we\u2019re going to push back against these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Very nicely said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah. Beautifully, powerfully put. And as we sort of make the final turn here, I want to end with looking ahead to Sunday. But by way of getting there, let\u2019s look back on the path to this Sunday with the World Cup finals. There\u2019s been a whole lot of\u2026 Again, the theme of the night is how do you hold onto the thing that you love when the stink is all around you and everything is corrupting it? The whole world has been asking itself that question over the past month as they\u2019ve been dealing with the Ronaldo stuff, the bracket like stuff, and the very fact that the two teams in the finals now were like sort of, it was impossible for them to face each other until now. And that feels in retrospect like kind of shady, the Egypt game.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There\u2019s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So much that people have had to sort of work through with that stink, including the Donald Trump, the infamous Donald Trump call. So let\u2019s take a look back at that really quick. And I wanted to ask you guys your hottest takes on the hottest controversies of this World Cup that have sort of brought that stink that we\u2019re dealing with here in the US to a full-blown international scale.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The hottest World Cuptake that I\u2019ll have, first of all, is rooting for Argentina because of Diego Maridona, which was 40 years ago. It\u2019s like, come on. That can\u2019t be your reason for rooting for Argentina, is Diego Maridona. I think I want Argentina to lose. There are rumors that Jewels is pro Argentina.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You got to save it. That\u2019s the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Final<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Question. That\u2019s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The final statement. I won\u2019t go there. Then I won\u2019t go there. I\u2019m just going to say I love doing that to you. I\u2019ve known Jewels a long time. But my number one hottest take from this World Cup is anybody who says that if the US\u2019s best athletes just played soccer, like if LeBron James played goalie, then the US would win every World Cup I think is incredibly insulting to people who actually play soccer. The reason why the US doesn\u2019t do better straight up is that the pipeline is a country club and it costs so much money to play youth sports. In this country does it different than every other country? The reason why a country of 300 million people that has a large imigrant population that is sports obsessed can\u2019t field a halfway decent World Cup team. It\u2019s because the way we do it in this country is pay to play.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You want to be trained at the top clubs? You better have minimum 10 grand on the table for your kid. And Lord knows how much under the table to make sure your kid gets those positions. As long as that\u2019s the case, this country will always suck at soccer. So the next time someone says to you, \u201cWhy doesn\u2019t the US do better at soccer?\u201d Y\u2019all would just look at him and be like, \u201cBecause of the way this country practices capitalism.\u201d And if you\u2019re not practicing soccer as a democratic socialist exercise, your team is going to suck. And that\u2019s why the US sucks.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do you want to argue for Argentina or for Spain though? Do you want to give your argument? No, go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>No,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The last<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Question. Oh, that\u2019s the last question. So I recently had the good fortune of interviewing this man named Timu Furulhom. Timu Furlholm played for the Finnish national men\u2019s soccer team. And the thing that\u2019s interesting about him is that after his career, he\u2019s now become a member of the National Parliament in Finland as a leftist. He\u2019s part of the Left Alliance. Now you\u2019ll know that soccer has a pretty notorious history of soccer players turned politicians that are right wingers, including your buddy Romario from Brazil who started as a socialist on the left and kind of eked his way over and finally endorsed Bolsonaro at one point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>My dear friend.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Your dear friend Romario. And so I was talking to him and we were talking about sort of the system in Finland and how the soccer system there was so different and how it was bricked into society in a way that\u2019s not the country club soccer circuit that Dave so nicely described. And I was asking him about Finland is the happiest country in the world year after year. And instantly I could tell it was a bad question. He\u2019s like, \u201cOh God, I\u2019m so sick of hearing about that. \u201d And he said, he goes, \u201cThe thing about Finland is that we don\u2019t try to take the moon from the skies. We want everybody to be able to play sports at whatever level they want. We want people to be able to go to music concerts and experience culture for free and easily.\u201d And he also added, \u201cWe also want people to be able to take a one week trip to the Canary Islands every year,\u201d which I thought, \u201cOkay.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Throw that in<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There. That\u2019s fine. Yeah. But I\u2019m just saying there are models out there. I mean, Finland is not at the other end of the universe. And I do think that they provide some ideas for how we could move forward and how we could just have a whole different way of thinking about life and how soccer and culture and soccer\u2019s a big part of culture, how it all kind of fits into one bigger hole. And by the way, before I have to defend Argentina, I just want to say I\u2019ve been backed into a corner, but I\u2019m going to do my damnedest here in a second. Thank<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You. Jewels drew the short straw because we were like, \u201cWe got to debate. You can\u2019t both root for the same team. So yeah, give it up to Jules for defending the Argentina side of our final celebrity death match here. But we\u2019ve all been watching the World Cup. We got the final coming up on Sunday. None of us are all that excited. It\u2019s Spain versus Argentina. Okay, but let\u2019s make the most of it. So in our final round, which is going to be a genuine debate and the crowd is going to decide who won.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Oh my God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But again, we\u2019re recognizing that Dave\u2019s got a 0.4 second head start. So as principled leftists or people of conscience, who is the right team to root for this Sunday?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, Nixon five, of course. That\u2019s what you say in New York. Get a good response. Look, here\u2019s the thing. I get asked sometimes, why are you always trying to make sports political? This is our escape. This is our fun. Why are you trying to make sports political? And the answer is you can say you don\u2019t believe in gravity when you fall out of an airplane. It doesn\u2019t really matter whether you believe in gravity or not. You\u2019re falling out of an airplane. Whether I say sports are political or not does not change the fact that they are political. It\u2019s just whether we\u2019re going to be quiet about it or not. It\u2019s just if you\u2019re pointing at a building and saying it\u2019s on fire, that doesn\u2019t make you an arsonist. And so to take it to this particular thing, and Jules is going to win this debate because this is soccer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019m a visitor on his field here. But to take it this, it\u2019s like the World Cup is political whether we want it to be or not, not just because it\u2019s like nation against nation or whatnot, but this is the last thing that we have that the whole world watches. And that gives it a tremendous amount of power if that can be steered in one direction politically or another. And every single World Cup, at least since the 34 World Cup hosted by Mussolini in Italy, has attempted to use this particular event to steer people politically in one direction or the next. And we have a particularly fraught political battle coming this Sunday because think about it like this, whether Spain wins or whether Argentina wins, the leader of that country will get a boost in the rarest commodity in all of politics in 2026. And that\u2019s hope.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>People feel better in a very difficult time. People feel hopeful in a difficult time. Ask Mamdani what it meant to him to have the Knicks win. It actually does make a difference if you have that collective sense of we\u2019re really doing something here. The direction we\u2019re going really matters. So if you agree with me up to that point, then let\u2019s take a quick look at what we\u2019re dealing with. In Spain, the leader is a guy by the name of, I believe, Pedro Sanchez. Pedro Sanchez is a social Democrat. He\u2019s the leader of an organization called the Socialist Workers Party there. They believe in a much progressive stance on immigration. They believe in mass social spending and having a social safety net. And most importantly, they have earned the undying hatred of Donald Trump because they refuse to let their bases be used in the war on Iran.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the leader of that country, Pedro Sanchez, has called out Israel\u2019s genocide in Gaza and he has refused aid and fuel and military aid that were preexisting contracts to Israel. He pulled because of what was happening in Gaza. So you have to think\u2026 Oh, and also he\u2019s in a very polarizing situation where the country loves him, the country hates him. There\u2019s all this going on there. And so you think, okay, what will it mean to this individual if Spain wins? Then you go to Argentina who\u2019s running that place. Good Lord. Good Lord. Someone who genuinely looks like a Muppet named\u2026 And I love the Muppet. So that\u2019s the nicest thing I\u2019m going to say about him. Named Javier Miley and Omilei here. If you don\u2019t know him, he\u2019s a good friend of Trump, billionaire. And Israel loves him so much that when Benjamin Netanyahu was asked who he was rooting for in the World Cup, he said Argentina.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And they asked him because of Messi. And he said, not because of Messi, Milei. He\u2019s the superstar. And he is also somebody who\u2019s in a huge corruption scandal. His popularity is plummeting. The country is very polarized. And so then you think what it would mean to Miley if Argentina wins the World Cup. If nothing else, I think if Argentina wins, you\u2019re going to see Miley on the field with Donald Trump holding up the trophy. If Spain wins, Donald Trump will find him. It\u2019ll be probably swimming at the bottom of that algae belching reflecting people in Washington. Have a better time there than at the World Cup if Spain wins. So I say root for Spain because I want to see a world as far away from the vision that Javier Milay has for this world as humanly possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s good. That\u2019s good. Really good. Really, really convincing argument. But it could be even more convincing because I have a few other things I want to add to that. No,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can\u2019t. Get him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, for starters, there\u2019s a guy on Spain by the name of Lamin Yamal. Magical left foot, beautiful player, and by all appearances a beautiful human being. 19 years<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Old.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>19 years old. And his dad\u2019s family\u2019s from Morocco. His mom\u2019s family\u2019s from Equatorial Guinea. And he\u2019s sure to represent every part of his heritage and background in creative and beautiful ways. He also recently, he\u2019s on Barcelona Football Club as well, which recently won La Liga. And at the celebration afterwards on the team bus, he was on the top and he was waving a Palestinian flag. He\u2019s a Muslim man who\u2019s been very outspoken for Palestinian rights. So how do you not like Lamit Yamal? He\u2019s just a lovely human being. On the flip side, over on the Argentina side, there\u2019s a guy named Enzo Fernandez. You might remember him most recently for scoring the first goal against England to equalize 1-1 off an assist from Leonel Messi. That was about the best thing he\u2019s probably done in his life. He\u2019s done some terrible things after the Copa America Tournament recently after they beat Columbia for the title.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He was caught on the bus singing racist songs and singing anti-trans songs right there on the bus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is the best debate I\u2019ve ever had. I\u2019m<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jules Boykoff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Killing it right now. Sorry, go ahead. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. I\u2019m just trying to help you. I\u2019m just trying to help you. Keep cooking. Keep cooking. Because you need a lot of help over there. Keep cooking. Keep coking. So there are so many reasons if you start going down the roster, but there is one reason why you might want to slow down or two reasons why you might want to slow down and have a little bit of sympathy for Argentina. One is the one that Dave just preemptively nixed going after the Meridana factor. I don\u2019t think we can just skim over the surface of that that easy. I mean, this is one of the all time legends of athlete activism in the history of football. Dave, you yourself have written wonderful work, columns about this man. So I don\u2019t think we should just get rid of him into history.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I actually like, unlike some people, I like having history present in a contemporary moment. Diego Meridana. And the other thing is I do have some sympathy for Leo Messi. 39 years old. He\u2019s going to set a record for the most steps walked on the field in a World Cup. He does not run that much. They do not make this man play any defense whatsoever. It\u2019s fun to watch in a sense because he\u2019s just like kind of walking. Then they feed him the ball. It\u2019s not a very complex offensive structure that Argentina\u2019s working with here, especially for a World Cup final. But he\u2019s 39 years old and in some ways an inspiration in that regard. I know he took a bunch of Saudi Arabia money for their tourism. I\u2019ve wrote about that plenty. But I got put in this difficult position of trying to make Argentina look good and I just can\u2019t do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay? Fine. Those things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let\u2019s give it up for Jules Boycott and Dave Zauer and everybody.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yo, give it up for Max Alvarez and the Real News Network. Kayla Rivera<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Too. Where\u2019s Kayla? I don\u2019t even see her. And last, give it up for Chelos Bar again for hosting us. Thank you so much Chelos for having us. Hell yeah. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Real News Network Podcast. Thank you to everyone who came out in person for this incredible event. Thank you to the good folks at Chilos Bar for hosting us. And thank you to Dave Zyran and Jules Boycot for this incredible and incredibly fun and meaningful conversation. We are absolutely going to be doing more in \u2013 person events like this in Baltimore, Washington DC, Philadelphia, New York and more. So make sure that you are following us on social media and that you\u2019re subscribed to our newsletter so you don\u2019t miss the next one. And if you want to hear and be part of more important conversations just like this, then we need you to become a supporter of The Real News now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Share this podcast with people in your circles, your friends, your family, your coworkers, and go to therenews.com\/donate and become a supporter today. I promise you guys, it makes all the difference. For The Real News Network, this is Maximillian Alvarez signing off from Baltimore. Take care of yourselves and take care of each other.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The Real News Network<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Independent \u00b7 Nonprofit \u00b7 Nonpartisan<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/support.therealnews.com\/-\/XKGGAUJK\">Donate Now \u2192<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tax-deductible \u00b7 Secure \u00b7 Cancel anytime<br>The Real News Network is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>100%<\/strong>Viewer Supported<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>$0<\/strong>Corporate Funding<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>20+<\/strong>Years of Independent Journalism<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Every dollar you give<\/strong>&nbsp;goes directly toward the reporting corporate media won&#8217;t do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>GET FEARLESS, AD-FREE, UNCOMPROMISING REAL NEWS IN YOUR INBOX<\/strong>Sign up<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><em>Related<\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/how-trumps-world-cup-echoes-dictatorships-of-the-past?relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=0&amp;relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=0\"><\/a><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/how-trumps-world-cup-echoes-dictatorships-of-the-past?relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=0&amp;relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=0\">How Trump\u2019s World Cup echoes dictatorships of the past<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/from-mussolini-to-mass-incarceration-why-gramsci-matters-today?relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=1&amp;relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=1\"><\/a><\/h4>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/from-mussolini-to-mass-incarceration-why-gramsci-matters-today?relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=1&amp;relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=1\">From Mussolini to mass incarceration: Why Gramsci matters today<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/gaining-consent-by-promising-force-late-fascism-and-gramsci?relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=2&amp;relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=2\"><\/a><\/h4>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/gaining-consent-by-promising-force-late-fascism-and-gramsci?relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=2&amp;relatedposts_hit=1&amp;relatedposts_origin=345275&amp;relatedposts_position=2\">\u2018Gaining consent by promising force\u2019: Late fascism and Gramsci<\/a><\/h4>\n\n\n\n<p>Republish This Story<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><a href=\"https:\/\/creativecommons.org\/licenses\/by-nd\/4.0\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/wp-content\/plugins\/republication-tracker-tool\/assets\/img\/cc-by-nd-4.0.png\" alt=\"Creative Commons License\"\/><\/a><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>Republish our articles for free, online or in print, under a Creative Commons license.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/maximillian-alvarez\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/maximillian-alvarez\">Maximillian AlvarezEditor-in-Chief<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Editor-in-Chief<\/strong><br>Ten years ago, I was working 12-hour days as a warehouse temp in Southern California while my family, like millions of others, struggled to stay afloat in the wake of the Great Recession. Eventually, we lost everything, including the house I grew up in. It was in the years that followed, when hope seemed irrevocably lost and help from above seemed impossibly absent, that I realized the life-saving importance of everyday workers coming together, sharing our stories, showing our scars, and reminding one another that we are not alone. Since then, from starting the podcast Working People\u2014where I interview workers about their lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles\u2014to working as Associate Editor at the Chronicle Review and now as Editor-in-Chief at The Real News Network, I have dedicated my life to lifting up the voices and honoring the humanity of our fellow workers.<br>\u00a0<br>Email: max@therealnews.com<br>\u00a0<br>Follow:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/maximillian_alv\">@maximillian_alv<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/maximillian-alvarez\">More by Maximillian Alvarez<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/dave-zirin\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/dave-zirin\">Dave Zirin<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave Zirin is the sports editor of the Nation Magazine. He is the author of 11 books on the politics of sports, including most recently, The Kaepernick Effect Taking A Knee, Saving the World. He\u2019s appeared on ESPN, NBC News, CNN, Democracy Now, and numerous other outlets. Follow him at&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/EdgeofSports\">@EdgeofSports<\/a>.<a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/dave-zirin\">More by Dave Zirin<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/jules-boykoff\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/jules-boykoff\">Jules Boykoff<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jules Boykoff<\/strong>&nbsp;is a professor in the Department of Politics and Government at Pacific University in Oregon. He is the author of&nbsp;<em>Activism and the Olympics: Dissent at the Games in Vancouver and London<\/em>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<em>Celebration Capitalism and the Olympic Games<\/em>. His writing on politics and sports has appeared in places like the Guardian, the New York Times, Al Jazeera America, and Dissent Magazine. He is a former professional soccer player who represented the US Olympic Soccer Team in international competition.<a href=\"https:\/\/therealnews.com\/author\/jules-boykoff\">More by Jules Boykoff<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Posted inPolitics and Movements: US Love the World Cup but hate FIFA? Love professional sports but hate the billionaires, gambling companies, and authoritarians ruining them? You\u2019re not alone. by\u00a0Maximillian Alvarez,\u00a0Dave Zirin\u00a0and\u00a0Jules Boykoff July 22, 2026 (therealnews.com) FIFA President Gianni Infantino and U.S. President Donald Trump in conversation after the award&#8230; <a class=\"continue-reading-link\" href=\"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/2026\/07\/24\/loving-sports-in-an-age-of-authoritarians-a-conversation-with-dave-zirin-and-jules-boykoff\/\"> Continue reading <span class=\"meta-nav\">&rarr; <\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[2161],"tags":[82,2264],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/49355"}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=49355"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/49355\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":49356,"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/49355\/revisions\/49356"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=49355"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=49355"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=49355"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}