{"id":8740,"date":"2018-05-25T14:28:27","date_gmt":"2018-05-25T21:28:27","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/?p=8740"},"modified":"2018-05-25T14:28:48","modified_gmt":"2018-05-25T21:28:48","slug":"8740","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/2018\/05\/25\/8740\/","title":{"rendered":"9 questions for Dr. Harry Edwards"},"content":{"rendered":"

By Harrison Barnes<\/a><\/p>\n

DALLAS MAVERICKS<\/p>\n

DEC 14 2017 (theplayerstribune.com)<\/p>\n

Basketball is my first love, but it\u2019s not my only one. From the small town in Iowa where I grew up, to Chapel Hill for college, to the Bay Area and now to Dallas, I\u2019ve been lucky in my life to get to meet a wide variety of people, each with their own beliefs, dreams, habits, and outlooks on the world. Interacting with different people with different stories sparked my curiosity about what makes people not only good at what they do, but good, period. I am drawn to leaders who set out to make positive change in their communities.In that spirit, I\u2019m doing a series of interviews this season with people who I admire from afar. I want to get to know them better and\u00a0share our conversations here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

For my first interview, I got to talk to Dr. Harry Edwards, the sociologist and civil rights activist who is maybe best known as the architect of the protest at the 1968 Summer Olympics in Mexico City. But as I soon found out, there\u2019s a lot more to learn, and admire, about the man.<\/p>\n

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Harrison Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

Dr. Edwards, it\u2019s a real pleasure to talk to you. I can\u2019t think of a better person to launch this interview series with. So let\u2019s get right into it. You\u2019re close with Colin Kaepernick. When\u2019s the last time you and Colin talked?<\/p>\n

Dr. Harry Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

We exchanged emails just this morning [Thursday, December 7]. And, you know, we discussed quite a few issues, some of which are confidential. But most of the time when people ask me that question they want to know how he\u2019s doing and my response has been consistent: I\u2019m not worried about Kaepernick, I\u2019m worried about the rest of us. Kap knows exactly what he\u2019s doing, where he is in his life, what he\u2019s dedicated to, what\u2019s important. He\u2019s still in the greatest football shape that I\u2019ve ever seen him in and he\u2019s gonna be just fine. But I\u2019m concerned about the rest of us. We are a society now that, to a substantial degree \u2014 and in no small measure as a consequence of who\u2019s sitting up in the Oval Office \u2014 appears to have lost its way in terms of its fundamental decency, in terms of its commitment to forming that more perfect union. We\u2019re now struggling to determine who and what we are as a society and where we are, where we should be headed, where we want to be headed as a nation. Kap doesn\u2019t have that problem. He understands exactly and precisely who he is. He understands what he envisions as a more perfect union and he is committed to making the sacrifices, to making the statements, to doing what is necessary in order to get there \u2014 working from the ground up, beginning with the children and young adults that he meets with, the camps he holds, the conferences he attends.<\/p>\n

Harrison Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

I hear some people say they just take issue with the kneeling \u2014 with Colin\u2019s protest\u00a0style.\u00a0<\/i>To me that feels like they\u2019re kind of deflecting from the main point. What do you say about that?<\/p>\n

Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

You know what I say? Go back and look at history. There has never been a protest by an oppressed minority in American society \u2014 not the Native Americans taking over Alcatraz, not Jewish people protesting neo-Nazis in this country, not African-Americans in any case in any era at any time \u2014 when mainstream America has stood up and said, \u201cAmen, we agree with that protest.\u201d When it comes to black people protesting, mainstream America was not for the March on Washington, it was not for the march across the Pettus Bridge in Selma, it was not for the Freedom Rides, it was not for the school integration protest, it was not for the sit-ins in the 1960s, it was not for the demonstrations in Mexico City in the 1968, it was not for Muhammad Ali\u2019s refusal to be inducted into the military to fight a war that he thought was immoral, illegal and unjustified. There has never been a protest movement for which America in the mainstream stood up and said, \u201cAmen, we need this message.\u201d So it doesn\u2019t make any difference what Colin Kaepernick\u2019s protest style is. If he took a knee on the sidewalk outside of the stadium before the game during the playing of \u201cChopsticks\u201d and said, \u201cI\u2019m protesting injustice and racism in America, I\u2019m protesting unconscionable incarceration rates, I\u2019m protesting the fact that a black person has three times the chances of being shot by a police officer than a white person in America, I\u2019m protesting what is happening in this society as far as black educational opportunities and the enforcement of black human and civil rights,\u201d you would have an outcry. So when it comes down to people critiquing Colin\u2019s protest style, I ask them one question: Name me one black protest that America has been in favor of. And you know what I get? Crickets. Nothing. They can\u2019t come up with one, because there\u2019s never been one. Therefore, it doesn\u2019t make any difference what Colin\u2019s protest style is.\u00a0Just shut up and play football<\/i>\u00a0\u2014 that\u2019s what they really want us to do. They want us to sit down and shut up. That is the reality of protest. And Colin\u2019s not gonna do that.<\/p>\n

<\/picture>Richard Shotwell\/Invision\/AP Images<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

Nor should he have to. Do you think there\u2019s another sports story right now that isn\u2019t getting enough attention?<\/p>\n

Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

I think that the issue of African-Americans in sports\u2019 higher positions really needs to be looked at. I look at Richard Lapchick\u2019s quote-unquote report card on diversity in the NFL, for example. This year the NFL got an A because we have eight black head coaches \u2014 equal to the highest number ever in the league \u2014 and 43 African-Americans in high positions such as GM and vice president and so forth. But I look at that and wonder, How could one grade it at all? And secondly, What is the meaning of the grade? Because unless you are telling me that Kap is still on the street because those 43 VPs and GMs and eight head coaches all agree with Jerry Jones and Donald Trump that the players who are protesting the summary execution of black people in the streets of this country are \u201csons of bitches,\u201d then I have to believe that they\u2019re in position but they don\u2019t have power.<\/p>\n

You know, there\u2019s a difference between change and progress. Eight head coaches and 43 presidents and GMs and vice presidents, and so forth,\u00a0is<\/i>\u00a0change. But it\u2019s not necessarily progress \u2014 unless there\u2019s a carrying over of power and authority in those positions. I\u2019m looking at Kaepernick on the street and that tells me something. It tells me that those people in those higher positions are not exercising authority and power.<\/p>\n

We\u2019re hearing,\u00a0Well they got black coaches and they got black GMs, so if they are not bringing Kap in, then there must be something wrong in terms of his ability to play.\u00a0<\/i>You know what? That\u2019s nonsense. You\u2019re telling me that Kaepernick is the worst quarterback prospect that the NFL could call in? You\u2019re telling me that Colin Kaepernick is not only worse than the 32 starters, the 32 backups and the 32 clipboard holders that are occupying quarterback positions in the NFL today, but that he\u2019s so much worse than them that he doesn\u2019t even deserve a tryout for a position? That\u2019s nonsense.<\/p>\n

And I\u2019m not saying that getting Kaepernick back into the league is the whole answer to this situation. But I\u2019m saying that by him being on the street \u2014 it\u2019s an indication of where we are in terms of the state of diversity in the league. To argue that we could right this whole thing by a black GM or head coach giving Kaepernick a job would be the equivalent of saying that the whole struggle around the Montgomery bus boycott in 1956 would have been corrected if a bus driver was just willing to give Rosa Parks her seat back. Well no, it\u2019s going way beyond that. We have to look at this thing in terms of its broader implications and understand the dynamics of how these circumstances are being put together and projected in the mainstream sports media.<\/p>\n

So don\u2019t tell me that the NFL gets an A for diversity. You have a lot of black people in positions of authority who for a fact have neither authority nor power. And if they tried to exercise it they would find themselves on the street with Kaepernick.<\/p>\n

Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

You\u2019ve spent most of your life following the evolution of activism in sports. Where do you think we\u2019re at in that evolution?<\/p>\n

Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

Well, first of all, I think social media has had the greatest influence on both the trajectory and the impact of activism. I think that without the social media, it would\u2019ve taken years for the activist athletes of today to create that revelatory climate that we have today. At the end of the 1960s, we didn\u2019t have social media where you hit one button \u2014 S-E-N-D \u00a0\u2014 and then all of a sudden you had direct connection with millions of people. Today, athletes have that. So Colin Kaepernick and Malcolm Jenkins and Anquan Boldin and LeBron James and Steph Curry and Eric Reid are in touch with more people instantly than Muhammad Ali, Tommie Smith and John Carlos, Bill Russell, Jim Brown, Arthur Ashe, or Curt Flood were probably able to connect with directly throughout their entire activist lives.<\/p>\n

The second thing that has happened, particularly among professional athletes, is that unlike the conventional wisdom, which states that the more money an athlete makes the less likely that athlete is to take a stand, because of what he or she has at risk, the reality is that the more money an athlete makes, the more a team is invested in an athlete, the more a product is invested in an athlete as an endorser, so the more latitude and power that athlete has. So, when the CEO of Under Armour came out with a statement that Steph Curry did not approve of, Steph got on the phone and that next day Under Armour took out a full page ad in a Baltimore newspaper essentially apologizing. When athletes determined that Donald Sterling was unacceptable as an owner, they made it very, very clear that they wanted him gone. Within two months, Donald Sterling was gone. That kind of thing was absolutely unimaginable back in the late 1960s.<\/p>\n

But something that has changed for the worse, going back to social media, is that the sports establishment can go and find one big-name athlete, who they can either buy or bribe or who may legitimately disagree with the position of protesting athletes, put him on social media and all of a sudden that message goes out to three or four million people. The statement of a big-name athlete who has been bought, sold and paid for, carries the same weight and gravity in social media as an athlete who is putting everything on the line in an effort to contribute toward forming that more perfect union that the Constitution talks about. So we simply have to be aware of that. It\u2019s not a one-sided, one-perspective situation we\u2019re in. We always have to be thinking and analyzing,\u00a0What is the impact of this? What is the source of it? In whose interests is it being done?<\/i><\/p>\n

<\/picture>Jed Jacobsohn\/The Players’ Tribune<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

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Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

Absolutely. So I saw that you spoke on a panel with Jim Brown last year. Can you tell me a little bit about how that went?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

It went very well because it gave me an opportunity to express the seminal impact and enduring contribution of black athletes to American society. People forget that W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington and Marcus Garvey were debating over whether blacks should accommodate to segregation, or rely on talent and tests to lead and lift the masses of black people into mainstream competency or whether, in Marcus Garvey\u2019s words, black people should pack up and leave America altogether. While those three brilliant minds were debating those issues, black athletes from Jack Johnson to Jesse Owens to Joe Louis to Paul Robeson were taking on the world. Jack Johnson beat Tommy Burns for the heavyweight championship of the world. Jesse Owens took on the world at the 1936 Olympics along with 17 other black Olympians. Joe Louis knocked out Max Schmeling, a German who was representing white Aryan superiority. So while these debates were going on within the American context of whether we should accommodate Jim Crow, or whether we should put our talent to the test to raise us into integration, or whether we should separate and leave the country altogether, black athletes were taking on the world. Even the Negro Leagues won 60% of the All-Star exhibition games that they played against white All-Stars from the major leagues. Those white All-Stars knew that not only were black baseball players competent and capable, but in many instances they were superior.<\/p>\n

When you move up to Jackie Robinson, he had already engaged black people in nonviolent direct actions 10 years before Dr. King took on the Montgomery bus boycott with nonviolent direct action in 1956, the year Jackie retired. He talks about it in his autobiography. Black people attending Jackie\u2019s games were being trained by clergy and lay community organizers on how to behave when they heard the racial slurs hurled at Jackie by white fans. And how to react when they threw black cats on the field, or when they saw opposing players sliding into second with their spikes up trying to hurt Jackie. How do you behave in the face of that? Well, you do what I do on the field, Jackie was saying. You turn the other cheek because if Jackie got into a fight on the field maybe there\u2019d be dugout-emptying brawl. Or if fans got into a fight in the stands it could spill over into the streets and cause an all-out race riot \u2014 and the next thing you know the town is burning and nobody else wants to play the Dodgers. So Jackie Robinson was our Gandhi.<\/p>\n

The same with regard to athletes in the late 1960s. Muhammad Ali, Smith and Carlos, Arthur Ashe, Curt Flood, Jim Brown and Bill Russell were talking about a demand for dignity and respect \u2014 not just desegregation and access, but dignity and respect in the positions that they were in long before you had Barack Obama running for president. If Ali doesn\u2019t demand respect for his name \u2014\u00a0Muhammad Ali\u00a0<\/i>\u2026 I mean he literally got in the ring and beat guys and said, \u201cCall me by my name!\u201d \u2014 if he doesn\u2019t demand that, there\u2019s no way that the American people vote into the White House a man with a name like Barack Hussein Obama. So the black athlete has always been a trailblazer in terms of where we needed to go and the process by which we needed to get there.<\/p>\n

Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

As an athlete, I\u2019m always thinking about habits and goals and how to achieve the things I want to achieve. What principles and habits have guided you?<\/p>\n

Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

My entire life\u2019s pursuit has been to learn to dream with my eyes open \u2014 to understand the terrain that I\u2019m moving over, the price to be paid in pursuit of those dreams, those goals, and then to maintain at all costs the courage to continue that pursuit. And one gets to that space through study. Malcolm X said that history is the discipline that best rewards study. Rage is not enough. Anger will not get it done. You have got to be a student of life. You cannot allow your life to be something that just happens to you while you\u2019re doing something else. And from that study will emerge clear paths that you can take to achieve the goals that you set for yourself. A life without goals and awareness and commitment is empty. And I see a lot of empty lives around me. I see lives that have been empty for years and people unfortunately sometimes don\u2019t see it until they get up into my neck of the woods. I was fortunate enough to wake up, to become committed, to understand the dynamics of what needed to be done if my life was going to be meaningful when I was in my 20s. When I organized the Olympic Project for Human Rights I was 24 years old. I literally believed that I could change the world and was fearless. And I didn\u2019t expect to live to my 30s, but that did not moderate one bit my commitment to doing what I did in the late 1960s. My late friend, Maya Angelou, who wrote the forward to my 1980 autobiography, used to tell me all the time that courage is the greatest of all virtues because without it no other virtue is possible. And so I think that athletes and others should keep that in mind. I mean, these are the things that Kap and I have discussed during and after his time with the 49ers \u2014 and I\u2019m so proud of him in this fourth wave of athletes carrying out that tradition of athlete contribution.<\/p>\n

<\/picture>Michael Zagaris\/Getty Images<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

That is really powerful. Before I let you go, let\u2019s switch gears a bit here for a lighter question. If you could have dinner with anyone, who would you choose and what would you ask?<\/p>\n

Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

Oh boy. That\u2019s a tough one. You know who I would love to have dinner with? Michelle Obama. I donated to work as a supporter of Barack both times that he ran for office. But I told him I made it clear that I didn\u2019t vote for him. I told him I voted for the one whose name begins with an\u00a0M<\/i>\u00a0because I knew that as long as Michelle was there he was gonna be all right. And because of the women\u2019s things that are going on right now, which is long overdue, because of the racial issues that are going on now, of all of the political figures in this country today, including Barack, I think she has greater power and potential than any of them. And she\u2019s probably also smart enough not to ever run for office. So if I could sit down and have dinner with anybody, I would want to sit down and have dinner with Mrs. Obama. But of course I would have to get that past Mr. Obama and I don\u2019t think he\u2019d say yes ever since I told him I didn\u2019t vote for him \u2014 I voted for her. [Laughs.]<\/p>\n

Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

What do you do when you\u2019re not teaching, speaking or writing?<\/p>\n

Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

You know, I have a place up on the Mendocino Coast in Northern California. And I go up there and I put on John Coltrane and Miles Davis \u2014 I grew up in East St. Louis, literally about a mile from Miles Davis. So I grew up with the music. Sometimes I just go up there and lay back for two or three days and do absolutely nothing. Just listen to jazz and maybe sip some Hennessy, some R\u00e9my Martin, though I generally don\u2019t start that until about 4:30 or five o\u2019clock in the evening. At some point, you have to have a space where you can kind of walk away from it all. Otherwise you will find yourself beaten down by the burden of your own commitments. At some point you have to get into your car and drive away, and I was smart enough and well-positioned enough early on to create that space for me and my family. You\u2019d be surprised that even in the most difficult times how much a walk along the ocean with a pair of headphones on, listening to\u00a0Kind of Blue<\/i>, will do for your soul. And a lot of times that is what you have to nurture. Not your brain, not your business, not your calls, but you have to nurture your soul in order to be able to get back to where you need to be and deal with all the other things.<\/p>\n

Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

Absolutely, I agree with that. So my last question for you is your advice for young athletes like myself, across all borders, all sports, who want to get involved, who wanna do more. What is your advice for the best ways to get involved and to make a lasting impact \u2014 not just do something temporary?<\/p>\n

Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

What I would tell young athletes today, especially in the power position that you\u2019re in today \u2014 unprecedented in black athlete history \u2014 do you homework, study, be careful of who you align yourself with. But when you align yourself with somebody, be able to articulate the entirety of the challenge and explain why you are taking the stand that you are. That has been something that I have struggled to do for the last half century. And I think that to whatever extent I\u2019ve been able to make a contribution, that would be a major part of it. Do your homework, dream with your eyes open, and try to make a contribution beyond the box scores.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m often asked, \u201cAre you disappointed that more athletes are not speaking up?\u201d And my response is always no. I\u2019m surprised that the athletes who are speaking up have done their homework so well. Because that\u2019s a hard one to get people to wrap their minds around \u2014 that before you step out there, make sure you know how deep the pool is. Before you step out there, make sure you look both ways for oncoming traffic. Before you step out there, realize that you may not be able to step back in the same spot that you left. So do your homework, understand the history, the dynamics, and the trajectory of the issues that you are dealing with. Look around and study what has been done around those issues, especially historically and in the near past. And then try to figure out, How does my voice move things ahead most progressively and most responsibly? Sometimes that\u2019s a matter of joining with other athletes who are making statements, even if it\u2019s a statement such as \u201cI understand what Colin Kaepernick and Malcolm Jenkins and Michael Bennett and these athletes are protesting about because I come from a neighborhood where we have issues with the police.\u201d And by the way, the police are not the issue \u2014 the issue is treatment at the hands of the police. Police have a difficult job. They are putting on that uniform, that badge and that gun and going out there every day with a pledge to protect and serve knowing that there\u2019s a certain number of people out there who they\u2019re committed to protecting and serving who want to kill them. That\u2019s a crude description of the job, but that\u2019s the definition of the job. And that can lead to the kind of problems that police lead the nation in: alcoholism, divorce, suicide, mental issues and so forth. And you understand all of that, but you also have to understand that a police officer in South Carolina literally shot a black man in the back running away from him. That\u2019s what we have to correct. So you have to understand all sides of the problem, but you still have to come down on the right side of history and that requires study.<\/p>\n

Barnes<\/b><\/p>\n

I know you\u2019ve gotta run. It\u2019s been really great to hear your perspective, and I hope we can talk again soon. Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Edwards<\/b><\/p>\n

I appreciate your interest, and you can call me any time. And I just want to say, I love your game. We miss you out in Oakland but I love watching your game and I\u2019ll be following you.<\/p>\n

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Harrison Barnes<\/a><\/p>\n

DALLAS MAVERICKS<\/div>\n<\/div>\n