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<\/figure>\n\n\n\nPalestinians gather on the Israeli border to the east of Gaza City, protesting the killing of 11 Palestinians in the raid carried out by the Israeli army in West Bank city of Nablus, on February 23, 2023 in Gaza City, Gaza. Photo by Ali Jadallah\/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n In a special crossover moment for The Real News, Dave Zirin<\/a> of Edge of Sports<\/a><\/em> joins The Marc Steiner Show<\/em> for an installment of \u2018Not In Our Name\u2019\u2014a series of conversations and reflections from the Jewish diaspora on Palestinian liberation. In a meandering conversation, Dave and Marc discuss their own personal journeys through the many sides of Jewish politics and history, the current state of antisemitism in the world of sports, and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Studio Production: David Hebden The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Welcome to The Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I\u2019m Marc Steiner. It\u2019s great to have y\u2019all with us. And welcome to another edition of Not in Our Name, our series of conversations with Jews from around the world saying, \u201cNo to the occupation of Palestinian Land, and homes, and the ongoing oppression of Palestinians. There is another way.\u201d And today, we hear from this man, Dave Zirin. Now, I\u2019ve known Dave for some years now and he\u2019s been a guest of my show on public radio before. I don\u2019t think ever before here on The Real News, but that\u2019s okay because The Real News now has him here on the edge of sports, which is playing on The Real News.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin writes a column in that name for The Nation magazine. He\u2019s acknowledged around the world as one of the best sports analysts, commentators, and writers, not just covering the games that we play and love, but diving into the social, cultural, and political worlds twirling around and through that world of sports. He\u2019s the author of numerous books, including his latest Game Over, How Politics Has Turned the Sports World Upside Down, and of course, The John Carlos Story, The Sports Moment That Changed the World that won the NAAC Image Award. And let me leave time for our conversation. Dave, welcome. Good to have you with us, man.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh, I\u2019m just thrilled to be here and honored. Thank you so much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh, no. I\u2019m looking forward to this. I didn\u2019t know until I thought about having you on this segment, not in our name, that you have been around doing this for a while, talking at conferences, speaking out as a Jewish saying no. Talk about that sojourn for yourself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n No. Absolutely, I was raised in a very Jewish family like so many Jews in the United States. My grandparents and great-grandparents fled to this country from Eastern Europe to flee pogroms like so many Jews in this country. I lack a large family for the reason of the Holocaust. Like so many Jews, the stories of my grandparents, and from what I hear, great-grandparents of the shtetl in which they were raised no longer exist and are even difficult. We had to go through some efforts, even find out the names of said shtetl. Like a lot of Jews, although not all Jews, my grandparents and great-grandparents were very wary about speaking Yiddish in front of me. I would catch them doing it, but they were very insistent on English because they were very one to this idea that America could be a place where they would be safe. And if there\u2019s one thing I\u2019m happy about, when I think of my grandparents, is that they didn\u2019t live to see Charlottesville, that they didn\u2019t live to see the Tree of Life massacre in Pittsburgh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Join thousands of others who rely on our journalism to navigate complex issues, uncover hidden truths, and challenge the status quo with our free newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox twice a week<\/strong>:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019m actually grateful for that, not just because they led long lives and they would be 115 if they had lived that long, but also because they did have the illusion. And I do think it is an illusion that this country would be safe for the Jewish people, but they had a bigger illusion than that, which was that if the country would not be safe for Jewish people, if that day would come, then they had Israel almost like a place to go where they could be safe in a world built around in their mind, understandably, a history of attempted extermination by dominant cultures that Israel would be able to protect them from that. I grew up with that idea very strongly. I went to Hebrew school where what was taught often was Zionism and supporting Israel more than the Bible and the services and the historical culture. I had a teacher, I\u2019ll never forget an instructor who joked we\u2019re over 5,000 years old as a people, but in this room we\u2019re going to stick to the last 30.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Almost like Judaism is born in 1948 or 1967, that\u2019s where you get Judaism in full until we have our own homeland, how can you really call us a people? I mean, that is something I\u2019ve heard people like Arch Zionists say that it\u2019s almost the negation of Judaism to not have a homeland. Now, I grew up and like yourself, Marc, I found myself very in sync with a more radical set of politics than what was on offer from the Democrats and the Republican Party. Started seeing change as being a product, much more of social movements and individuals rather than in the result of people cutting deals in back rooms on Capitol Hill. And that\u2019s what I dedicated myself to, but I held onto those Zionist ideas. So I would say things like, \u201cI\u2019m against all war, but Israel has the right to defend itself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019m against all nationalisms, although except for I think Israel is really an exception to that, I\u2019m against all nationalisms except nationalisms of oppressed people like Black nationalism. I will always proudly stand with Latinx nationalism, Chicano nationalism. But at the same time\u2026 This is such a long answer, is that okay?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s cool, man. Listen. Go ahead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n All right. But at the same time I would be like, Israel is the exception. Israel is the exception. And obviously I was always, because I was in these radical circles, I was in debates with Palestinians, with other Jews, with people I respected deeply, people from the Middle East.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n This is in your 20s?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, yeah. Right now when I\u2019m talking to you, I\u2019m between the ages of 18 and 20.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Okay. Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n My mom is hearing this. She\u2019s going to wish I was in class more, but in college I was doing most of my reading outside the classroom, if I\u2019m being really honest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I understand that completely. Yes. I got you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And I was reading, believe me, just wasn\u2019t what I was being told to read. And finally the contradiction just became too great. I want to see liberation for all people, and that means liberation for the Palestinian people. I want to see liberation to the for Jewish people, of course, but I don\u2019t think, certainly not now, I could say I don\u2019t think a right-wing theocracy is an avenue towards liberation. But even in those days when people were hopeful about Rabin, and Arafat, and Oslo, when there was this sense of hope of a two state solution, even then I was like, \u201cI need to reject this and really stand for one state with equal rights for all because a two state solution would be an unequal relationship and further oppression by different means.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n We need to have a South Africa mindset to this, where we have to identify apartheid as apartheid and as consistent anti-racists and anti-oppression activists. We need to take this on. Now, I had Jewish people in my home be like, \u201cRacism, what are you talking about? This isn\u2019t Black and white.\u201d And that only made me more firm in my beliefs because if you can understand historically how the English oppressed the Irish, and if you understand historically that race is just an idiotic construct that\u2019s constructed as a modes of oppression, then I think racism has to be identified as such a dominant feature of Israeli society and one that\u2019s longstanding, and let alone talking about today, where they\u2019re now actually talking actual legislation for different punishments based on your ethnicity and based on your religion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n In Israel at this moment?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Right. But there\u2019s new right-wing government.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Fascist government.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes. But this fascist government, to me, all it is the fruit from a poison tree. It\u2019s something that has been coming to fruition for some time. And the last thing I\u2019ll say is when people say to me, \u201cWell, what did you read to shape your politics about this?\u201d It\u2019s like, of course I read some of the most famous stuff that\u2019s been out there about this by some of the great anti-Zionist writers, Jewish, and otherwise. And I\u2019ve read some things I\u2019ve disagreed with by people like Norman Finkelstein, for example. But part of me also really respects the way he stuck his neck out there for all these years. But although there are parts of me that disagree with him a lot, but that\u2019s another question. But the real thing that I read that really started to shift me honestly, was the op-ed page of Haaretz, which to a lot of folks in Israel is effectively The New York Times of Israel, for folks who don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And reading in the op-ed page that they used words that were not allowed to say in the United States like apartheid. That to me-<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Referring to Israel as an apartheid place?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Referring to Israel as apartheid place and talking about a Jewish writers speaking about that openly and what the responsibility is of Jews in that context, that to me was just like, \u201cOkay. There\u2019s justice and injustice in this case. This is straight up a which side are you on question.\u201d We can\u2019t straddle the middle on this. And that made me a fighter for Palestinian liberation, which I\u2019ve proudly been in the decade since.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n A lot of things popped in my head as you were speaking. And I was thinking about this poster that I got in Cuba in 1968 when I went there for the first time. And the poster was a picture, a drawing of the entire state of Israel, Palestine as one. And it said, \u201cOne state, two peoples, three faiths,\u201d suppose where I still have hanging in my study.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And it struck me because, at that point, I really newly minted against Zionism, Israeli state after, as I told you before in the air that thinking about volunteering for the Israeli army to fight in the \u201967 war.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n When you said that\u2026 I jump in real quick-<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, sure. Go ahead, man.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n \u2026 because this speaks to when you came of age. I once had someone tell me this amazing story, and this just says something about why a lot of Jewish people feel a great deal of confusion on some of these questions. I think that their synagogue in 1964 gave a youth, their youth group had the option to go on the Freedom Riders or go to Israel and work in a kibbutz or something of that nature. And it\u2019s just so interesting to me that they saw no contradiction on that whatsoever.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n None. All none.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I mean, none.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n You talk about the Freedom Riders, we don\u2019t want to digress too deeply into this, but 70% of the white Freedom Riders were Jews.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes. Wow. Which speaks to a lot of the right-wing, and we don\u2019t talk about this nearly enough, but a lot of antisemitism from the right about the \u201960s movements, SDS, et cetera.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n So let me ask you this difficult question.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Sorry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n No, you just raised it. You\u2019ve spoken about this. I\u2019ve seen at some of the conferences you\u2019ve been to and things you\u2019ve written, and the quote you had at the beginning of our discussion today, the right-wing Christian nationalist movement in this country, which is hugely powerful and is seizing power across this country right now, really dangerous for our future. They are at the same time they are anti-Semitic, they are pro-Israel. And so it creates this real confusion. And let me add to that something even more difficult to me in some levels, you have these conversations you\u2019ve had with a number of people, like with Michael Bennett, and we\u2019ll talk about that man. And Kyrie Irving, and it also goes into this difficult area of Jewish racism and Black antisemitism. They both exist and it complicates this struggle. Both those things. Talk a bit about your thoughts around that and how we navigate ourselves through that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Absolutely. The starting point is asking the question of navigation of a very difficult question. And that navigation begins with history. So the history between Black people and Jewish people in the United States is extremely complicated, extremely multilayered, and has been written about in great detail by authors. Both Jewish and Black have pondered this from, of course, James Baldwin, Richard Wright. I mean, there\u2019s a real pondering of what do we make of Jews? Are they our comrades in struggle or not? And one of the things, and of course much has been written by Jews of all stripes about how do we work with Black people? How do we fight racism? Why do we feel like it\u2019s an obligation to fight racism?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Like what you mentioned about the percentage of Jews involved in the Freedom Rides. I mean, that comes from a faith that says we need to stand with Black people. But that\u2019s only one side of that tradition. And that tradition is important though because the other side, and I\u2019m going to surprise you with what I say the other side is I think, the other side, which doesn\u2019t get talked about nearly enough, is that Black people have put their lives on the line fighting fascism since the 1930s-<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Easily, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n \u2026 1920s, even with the invasion of Ethiopia by Mussolini. And that\u2019s never talked about. I feel sometimes that, particularly Jewish liberals are like, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you support us to the Black community? We have fought for you for so long, not with you, but for you.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n For you, which is a whole different concept.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Whole different concept. It\u2019s like you owe me something. And I feel like, \u201cWait a minute, do you realize that Black people died in Spain fighting the Spanish Civil War to keep Franco from taking power?\u201d I mean, they put themselves on the line against international fascism time and again. Not to mention you think of people like Paul Robeson taking a stand against McCarthyism, which was a wholeheartedly anti-Semitic institution among anti\u2026 just about everything institution. So I think that part of the history needs to be known. The other part of the history, which I know you\u2019re familiar with, Marc, but just saying it for-<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n No. Please, go ahead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n \u2026 the listeners out there, is you have to deal with the economic basis of the cities of the United States to understand the tension, and you have to understand whiteness, and what I refer to sometimes as conditional whiteness. Jewish people in the cities striving, attempting to make it in this country. Strong emphasis on community and education, strong emphasis on rising, and a strong emphasis on patriotism as well. Eventually leaving the inner city, setting up camp in wealthier, more affluent neighborhoods, or even just neighborhoods that are not so people living on top of each other, housing projects and the like, but they\u2019re still owning a lot of the local businesses and running a lot of the local businesses.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And then Black people, the great migration coming up from the south, living in cities. So if you are Black and living in a city a hundred years ago and you feel generally screwed over by society, who is the face of society that you see every day, it\u2019s not somebody running a Wall Street bank. It\u2019s not somebody in the Oval Office. It\u2019s the person you see every day at the local store, every day at the cleaners, every day, what have you. And on the other side of the law, who is running the numbers in places like Harlem, who\u2019s got the power? There\u2019s the local guy, but then there\u2019s the man. And the Jewish mafia was very real at that time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I knew them well. Yes, they\u2019re [inaudible 00:16:04].<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n So you have all these complications to the relationships that have led to a lot of tension and a lot of belief that Jewish people are part of the problem in the quest for Black liberation, which came out, I think, in a lot of Kyrie Irving\u2019s comments in terms of the video that he was trying to put forward. But with that comes a great deal of lies and antisemitism that is very at home among the Christian nationalists right white in this country. And when Kyrie Irving started to say what he was saying and telling people to see this movie, Hebrews to Negroes, I believe it was called, when he was pushing that virulently anti-Semitic video, look at who was celebrating it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I mean, there were NBA players defending his right to put out anything he wanted on social media because that was an interesting debate too. A lot of them saying, \u201cWell, wait a minute, the league wants us to be socially active, but as soon as somebody tries to flex that in a way the league thinks is bad for its business, it cracks down on them.\u201d A lot of players were like, \u201cWhat is this?\u201d But if you look at where Kyrie Irving was celebrated, he was being celebrated in the same corners that Kanye West was being celebrated, Nazi message boards, fascist message boards, that whole idea like, oh, they\u2019re pointing out that the Jews are these blood sucking people who are out to destroy, and all this stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And so they actually attach themselves strange bedfellows to someone like Kyrie Irving who they would probably see as completely less than human in the first place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Absolutely. Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n So that\u2019s a very long answer, but I think that that provides some of the context for understanding that there\u2019s this incredible sense of connectivity between Black people and Jewish people, and an incredible sense of division. And I think it is because of Jews being granted, not whiteness, but this conditional whiteness like, \u201cWe will allow you to achieve and access the benefits of whiteness. However, if we feel like you are stepping out of just being quiet, good burgers, you will be a target.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n As we\u2019ve discussed, whether it\u2019s McCarthyism, whether it\u2019s SDS, whether it\u2019s this new generation that we\u2019re seeing in Jewish currents, whether it\u2019s the young Jews who are in the streets around Black Lives Matter, all of a sudden, if you notice it\u2019s Jews will not replace us by the far right. So that\u2019s that entry of life. That\u2019s the conditional part.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n So I want to get into the stuff you\u2019ve written about young Jews. I think it\u2019s really a critical part of our discussion today. But as you were speaking, I was thinking that everything we wrestle with politically, and socially, and culturally in our world is a mass of all the dialogical contradictions inside of it that just twists its way around life and existence. And Jews as in the 16th, 15th century through the 19th century because of the Christian domination were supposed to be the moneylenders. They were forced to be moneylenders and do certain jobs that Christians would not do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And so that morphed into the oppression that many Jews took part in this country when it came to owning corner stores, and being landlords and slumlords that I organized rent strikes against in the early \u201970s. And to hear the anti-Semitic comments of the people we were organizing against Jews while we were organizing them to rent strike against these landlords. So all that\u2019s there. And now you have these contradictions of the right-wing Christian nationalists who hate Jews, but want to hold onto Israel and as a tool of oppression and domination, and all that is intertwined. And then at the same time, you have the heart and soul of the socialists, and communist, and labor movements of the 20s and 30s in part was Jewish. And that same stream, that same electrical contradiction exists at this moment in the form we face today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And just to speak to my own history, it\u2019s like my grandfather on one side was very right-wing. His cousin fought in Spain and who he was very close to. So that\u2019s interesting to have that on the same tree. And my other grandfather, who I was very close to, he would tell me stories with tears in his eyes about the job that his family could get so they could live in this housing project was to collect the rents. And his father got really sick. So at age 14, his job was to go door to door and collect the rents from Black people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh my God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And he would often be confronted more with tears than anything else. And it wrecked him. It wrecked him. And he said, \u201cMore often than not, I just said, \u2018Don\u2019t pay.\u2019 And then my dad would get mad at me, and he was sick, but he would have to sort of trudge and get it.\u201d And eventually they moved to Florida as prescribed to all Jews.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n The other Israel.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. But it speaks to that. I mean, it\u2019s like, so someone says, \u201cWhat\u2019s the Jewish political tradition?\u201d It\u2019s a lot of things, but it also, to me, the tradition that I identify with is one that fights all oppressions, is one that links arms with all peoples, and also is one that owns its own cultural history and listens when people say, \u201cOkay. These are some of the problems that we\u2019ve had historically in building Black and Jewish relationships.\u201d I mean, this stuff runs really deep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Very deep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And you can\u2019t ignore the scars no matter which community created them, no matter what. You can\u2019t just pretend they\u2019re not there. They need to be discussed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n So let me move to the stuff you\u2019ve written about and that many people are talking about now, which is what\u2019s happening in the latest polls have shown that you attached to your link in your article for the nation that young Jews are shifting-<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dramatically, I think.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n \u2026 when it comes to Israel Palestine, and young Jews are moving left in many ways and some inside the Democratic Party, some moving outside the Democratic Party. So let\u2019s just talk about what you see there and what contradictions and what movements and what that sets up for the future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. I think what it sets up is maybe as soon as 2024, unless people are too concerned about Trump and rising fascism to raise it-<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Which is something to be concerned about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. I\u2019m in no way saying denigrate anybody\u2019s fear about that, but it makes me think it\u2019ll tamp down convention criticisms. But I\u2019ll tell you this, if they did a vote on the grassroots of the Democratic Party about a disavowal of funding Israel, I think it would pass. And we\u2019re talking grassroots Democratic Party. I\u2019m not even talking people who vote Democrat, I\u2019m talking like the people who show up to the convention even. I mean, a few rounds ago, I\u2019m trying to remember, I think it was Obama\u2019s 2012 run, they actually had to stop the calling of a vote that looked like it was going to narrowly pass.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I remember.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. Do you remember?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I mean, so to me you ask, \u201cWhat does this lead to?\u201d And it\u2019s a great question. I think it has to lead to a massive political confrontation with the Democratic Party. Things like President Biden inviting Netanyahu to speak and smiling. That\u2019s just going to be unacceptable. And for a lot of people, it\u2019s unacceptable now, or it\u2019s a reason to break from the Democratic Party because the Democratic Party, it\u2019s so complicated because the upper reaches of the Republican Party are pro-Israel. Yes. For historical geopolitical reasons and imperial reasons in terms of what it allows it to do in terms of-<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And Christian ideology as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n There you go. Millenarianism like a huge part of their base. The world\u2019s going to end anyway, and that justifies a lot of things from not caring about global warming. I mean, all sorts of issues come from that millenarian mindset. And one of them is defend Israel at all costs, even though the people who live there are all going to hell unless they convert. And it says something about the bankruptcy of the right-wing in Israel that they somehow accept this and say, \u201cWow, we love having these amazing partners in the Christo-fascist community that thinks we\u2019re all going to hell.\u201d What the heck? But it just says something because it says how the allies have dwindled for Israel. And that\u2019s where it\u2019s really changed on our side of the equation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I know you interviewed Peter Beinart for this series, I\u2019m going to paraphrase what he said because I don\u2019t remember the exact quote, but he said, when it comes to young Jews, whether they\u2019re going to check their Zionism or political liberalism at the door, when they enter a room, they\u2019re going to check the Zionism, which is a big difference from decades past. And so when I\u2019m talking to young Jews, I\u2019m seeing people, and I do talk to them a decent amount, a lot of being influenced by the Black Lives Matter movement, a lot being influenced by being anti-oppression in general, a lot of being influenced by LGBTQ struggles. And seeing all of this as being connected to Palestinian liberation, which is really interesting because it also raises questions of what we call pinkwashing because Israel likes to raise itself up as the LGBTQ place in the region.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And yet I know Jews who have successfully gotten like Israeli flags banned from pride marches because they say that that\u2019s actually using our struggle as a reason, as a motivator for oppression in the region. And we stand with the Palestinian people. And so that\u2019s the other thing about the change, it\u2019s like you actually have to think to me to arrive at a position of opposition to Zionism or even opposition to the Likud section of it like-<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n The right-wing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n \u2026 the right-wing. Yes. That there is a thinking process that has to happen to get to that point, to oppose pinkwashing and not just say, \u201cWell, they like gay people in Israel. It can\u2019t be that bad.\u201d There\u2019s a thinking that has to go on. We suffer from a crisis of imagination sometimes to the point of which we can\u2019t even imagine the idea of a state with equal rights for all that could exist in harmony with one another. And I do understand the pessimism. I don\u2019t want to dismiss that out of hand. But at the same time, for those of us who believe in these ideals of human liberation, this is a moment in 2023 where we can\u2019t afford to have a crisis of imagination. I think we\u2019re going to be saved by imagination because we have to be able to see the world as it isn\u2019t, not merely as it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n No, exactly. So let\u2019s conclude with this. I\u2019m curious to see how you think that might play out, and I was thinking back to the roots almost of when Israel before it began as a state. People like [inaudible 00:28:18], who is the founder of the modern Hebrew language, the poet and writer. Martin Buber, the great Jewish philosopher. Albert Einstein. Together, the three of them and others came together and said, \u201cNo, Israel should not be a Jewish state, it should be a by national state,\u201d which is what their line was in \u201947, \u201948, \u201949. And now we come to this place we are now where the contradictions are just everywhere because it\u2019s, A, there\u2019s right-wing neofascist government in Israel that is clearly oppressing Palestinians and other Jews who don\u2019t agree with what they say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And you have the anti-Semitism is rife in this world, just like racism has been rife in this world for a long time. And it\u2019s there and it plays into all of that. So all these massive contradictions are in the midst of that. So I\u2019m curious how you think this plays out, how you would analyze where the movements go from here in terms of fighting for Palestinian rights, not falling into the world of antisemitism, and building a new kind of world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n You\u2019re going to have-<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Just a lightweight question of course.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n But it\u2019s the question. Well, I have no crystal ball. Let\u2019s make that clear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Right away. At the same time, I think you\u2019re going to see a line, and on one side of the line is going to be the bulk of Israeli Jews. On the other side is going to be Jews internationally, not just the United States. I think that\u2019s the confrontation that\u2019s coming up. And those Jews who are opposing Zionism are also going to be the Jews who are going to be on the front lines opposing fascism. So how interesting is that, that the Christo fascists are going to be lining up on one side of that line with not just the Netanyahu\u2019s of the world, but I\u2019ll repeat the bulk of the population, it\u2019s the settler colonialist mentality. And then on the flip side, you\u2019re going to have people who just say no and lead with their Jewish faith by doing it with that slogan, \u201cNot in our name.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s where it\u2019s going. And I think we\u2019re going to end up in a situation where there\u2019s going to be a lot of power in the hands of people in the United States who want to reject Israel as this kind of permanent ally that we give billions of dollars to, but they\u2019re going to be quashed by other interests that want\u2026 So I just think this debate is going to roil at the grassroots, both inside and outside the Democratic Party. And I usually don\u2019t even care about the inner workings of the Democratic Party. I mean, not because I think it\u2019s irrelevant to broader politics, but I figure so many people care about that. We have to have people who care about what\u2019s happening outside and tend to it, as it were. But a break at that level would be seismic in terms of the ripple effects through organizations, through APAC, through J Street, all the lobbying organizations. And for people who don\u2019t know, APAC is a hard right-wing lobbying group.<\/p>\n\n\n\n In DC, J Street is much more of like a left center. But for J Street, I think J Street is racked with contradictions in terms of its mission. What would it do to J Street with all of its connections in the Democratic Party if the Democratic Party said, \u201cYeah. No more blank check for Israel.\u201d That would be voted on now and win in the Democratic Party because of the gap between the grassroots and the people kissing in Yahoo\u2019s butt. So where is it going or where could it go are two different questions. I mean, where it\u2019s going is I\u2019ll quote, \u201cPublic enemy Chuck D.\u201d The future holds nothing else but confrontation. That\u2019s where it\u2019s going.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Where could it go? Peace. And peace means a state with equal rights for all to worship as they choose. And anybody who says that could never happen, that\u2019s a fantasy. I respond and say, \u201cThe fantasy is that you can have this quasi-fascist Israeli state right in the middle of the Middle East and say that that represents liberation for our people.\u201d That to me is far more of a fantasy than the idea of people being able to live together in peace.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin, this has really been a pleasure. I\u2019m glad we had a chance to do this together. There\u2019s so much more to talk about with this, but we\u2019ll do that in the future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019m thrilled, Marc. Thanks so much for having me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I really appreciate you being here. And I think that one of the things about our series here, not in our name, is to have a positive outlook that we can make the change, we can make it happen, we can unite with the right people to make a different kind of world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And the three letters we didn\u2019t mention, of course, is BDS.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n BDS.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Which I shouldn\u2019t split hairs about. I actually believe in that as a time honored tactic that has a place in politics. And the idea that it\u2019s illegal in Kansas to be for BDS, like laws like that, to me, only speak to the ludicrous nature of the United States. And I just will leave it at that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Look, Kansas also was the home of The Wizard of Oz.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n But this idea that you could be sanctioned for importing coffee from the West Bank or something is just absurd.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ridiculous.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n So BDS, Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions, absolutely critical. Israel calls it an existential threat because it speaks to the question about whether they could exist. I say it, the question of existence is about the existence of an apartheid state, not about a state itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin, thanks so much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And continue listening to Dave here on The Real News, Edge of Sports, and read him in the Nation Edge of Sports and all those fantastic books that come out. And we are really happy that Dave is part of our family here at The Real News right now. Dave, thanks so much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Dave Zirin:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019m thrilled.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Marc Steiner:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I hope you enjoyed our conversation today with Dave Zirin. Please continue listening or tune in to his work Edge of Sports right here on The Real News. And thank you all for joining us today. And thanks to David Hebden and Kayla Rivera behind the scenes and everyone here at The Real News from making this show possible. Please let me know what you\u2019ve thought about what you heard today, what you\u2019d like us to cover. Just write to me at mss@therealnews.com and I\u2019ll get right back to you. And while you\u2019re here, please go to www.therealnews.com\/support. Become a monthly donor during their summer drive, become part of the future with us. So for the crew here at The Real News, I\u2019m Mark Steiner. Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Dave Zirin discusses identity and political evolution on his journey to solidarity with Palestinian liberation. BY\u00a0MARC STEINER SEPTEMBER 5, 2023 (therealnews.com) Palestinians gather on the Israeli border to the east of Gaza City, protesting the killing of 11 Palestinians in the raid carried out by the Israeli army in West… Continue reading \n
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