{"id":6627,"date":"2017-10-29T13:38:27","date_gmt":"2017-10-29T20:38:27","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/occupysf.net\/?p=6627"},"modified":"2017-10-29T13:40:38","modified_gmt":"2017-10-29T20:40:38","slug":"intercepted-podcast-mike-pence-koch-brothers-manchurian-candidate","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/occupysf.net\/index.php\/2017\/10\/29\/intercepted-podcast-mike-pence-koch-brothers-manchurian-candidate\/","title":{"rendered":"INTERCEPTED PODCAST: MIKE PENCE IS THE KOCH BROTHERS\u2019 MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"Post-header\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-image-block\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.1\">\n<div class=\"ResponsiveImage Post-image\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.1.0\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"ResponsiveImage-image\" src=\"https:\/\/cdn01.theintercept.com\/wp-uploads\/sites\/1\/2017\/10\/Intercepted-Episode-33-header-1508895286-article-header.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1440\" height=\"720\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.1.0.0\" \/><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"Post-header-grid\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2\">\n<div class=\"Post-header-row\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0\">\n<div class=\"PostSocial\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-social-container\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-social\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-social-grid\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0.0.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-social-row\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0.0.0.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-social-block\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-social-inner-block\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-social-link-block\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.$facebook\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"Post-social-link-block\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.$twitter\">\u00a0<a class=\"Post-social-link Post-social-link--comments\" href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2017\/10\/25\/intercepted-podcast-mike-pence-is-the-koch-brothers-manchurian-candidate\/?comments=1#comments\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.$comments.0\">Photos: The Manchurian Candidate 1962, Getty Images (Pence) Photo Illustration: Elise Swain for The Intercept<\/a><\/div>\n<div data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.$twitter\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"Post-header-block\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1\">\n<div data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-title-block\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1\">\n<div class=\"PostByline byline\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.1\">\n<div class=\"PostByline-images\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.1.1\"><a class=\"PostByline-image-link\" href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/staff\/jackdisidoro\/\" rel=\"author\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.1.1.$170\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"PostByline-image\" src=\"https:\/\/cdn01.theintercept.com\/wp-uploads\/sites\/1\/2017\/01\/Profile-01-1485364709.jpg\" width=\"60\" height=\"60\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.1.1.$170.0\" \/><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"PostByline-names\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.1.2\"><a class=\"PostByline-link\" href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/staff\/jackdisidoro\/\" rel=\"author\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.1.2.$170\"><span data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.1.2.$170.0\">Intercepted<\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<p><br data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.1.3\" \/><span class=\"PostByline-date\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.1.4\">October 25 2017 (theintercept.com)<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"PartnershipArticle-StandardPost-PostByline\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.0.2.0.1.0.1.2\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"Post-body\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1\">\n<div class=\"Post-content-block-outer\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2\">\n<div class=\"GridContainer Post-scroll-container\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0\">\n<div class=\"GridRow\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0\">\n<div class=\"Post-content-block\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1\">\n<div class=\"Post-content-block-inner\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0\">\n<div class=\"PostContent\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.4\">\n<div data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.4.$p-0\">\n<p><u class=\"no-underline\">SUBSCRIBE TO THE INTERCEPTED PODCAST ON\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/podcast\/id1195206601\">APPLE PODCASTS<\/a>,<a href=\"https:\/\/play.google.com\/music\/listen#\/ps\/Idegjjdk5aur4wgogpuuui5aldm\">GOOGLE PLAY<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/podcast\/intercepted-with-jeremy-scahill\">STITCHER<\/a>, AND\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/podcasts\/\">OTHER PLATFORMS<\/a>. NEW TO PODCASTING? CLICK\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/podcasts\/#faq\">HERE<\/a>.<\/u><\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"iframe-class\" src=\"https:\/\/player.megaphone.fm\/PPY6525793662?light=true\" width=\"100%\" height=\"200\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" data-mce-fragment=\"1\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><u>OVER THE PAST\u00a0<\/u>week, there has been intense focus on what exactly happened to four U.S. commandos killed in Niger, and what they were doing there. Jeremy explains how the media and Capitol Hill reaction is either a symbol of complete incompetence or a crass act of political theater. This week on Intercepted: Investigative journalist Jane Mayer exposes the Koch-brother puppet masters behind Vice President Mike Pence\u2019s rise to power and lays out how the merging of radical extremist Christian ideology and the ruthless pursuit of corporate profits put Pence a heartbeat from the presidency. Chinese dissident and renowned artist Ai Weiwei has released a massive public art installation across New York City as his new film, \u201cHuman Flow,\u201d hits theaters. We speak to Ai about the humanitarian catastrophe of the 65 million globally displaced migrants and refugees who have fled terror groups, U.S. and Russian bombs, and climate change. He also shares his thoughts on Trump and talks about his own persecution in China. We end with\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/deerhoof.bandcamp.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Deerhoof<\/a>\u2018s Greg Saunier on the songs of the album \u201cMountain Moves,\u201d and the power of creativity in the era of Trump.<\/p>\n<p>An exclusive first look at Deerhoof\u2019s new music video for \u201cI Will Spite Survive,\u201d directed by Geoff Hoskinson, is below:<\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/LhVITaVC4XI\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400px\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\" data-mce-fragment=\"1\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jeremy Scahill:<\/strong>\u00a0Hey, everybody this is Jeremy, again and I\u2019m just popping in here at the beginning of the show to say thank you to everyone who has become a sustaining member of Intercepted. We have just been astonished at the level of support that has poured in.<\/p>\n<p>We have almost 1,600 to date that have pledged their support to this program, to keep it on the air, to expand what we do on Intercepted, and to keep us going strong with our critical mission to hold the powerful accountable, to expose injustice and to provide people with information that they can use to make informed decisions.<\/p>\n<p>And I want to let the people who have pledged their support know that your financial support of this program means that we will be able to keep this program totally free for anyone to listen to. We do not want to use a paywall. I really am committed to making this show available to anyone, anywhere in the world that wants to hear it. We don\u2019t want to carve off some of our content to say, \u201cWell, only this is going to be for our exclusive supporters. We want to be able to make the information that you hear on this program, every episode, to be available to everyone and by pledging your support to Intercepted, you are making that possible for people that may not be in a position to financially support this program but depend on the information, depend on the diversity of viewpoints and the guests and the books that you hear about on this program.<\/p>\n<p>If you want to join the 1,600 people who have already become sustaining members of Intercepted, you can do that by going to theintercept.com\/join. Become a sustaining member of Intercepted. We have some great thank-you gifts including a hoodie, digital downloads of our cold opens that you hear at the beginning of our program, there are stickers for your laptop with the Intercepted logo on them. But most importantly, you become a sustaining member of this program.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re not in a position to contribute financially, it is still extremely valuable to tell your friends \u2014 hey, even tell your foes, about this program. Use it to challenge your friends: holidays are coming up, you can use some of the topics and information that you\u2019ve heard on this program to argue with people, to take on issues that may be uncomfortable to discuss at the dinner table, but need to be discussed in the kind of time that we live in. Maybe this show will help you to change the minds of some of the people that play a very meaningful role in your life, but the Trump moment has caused big problems for you. Whatever your motivation is, we appreciate you supporting this program and we promise to you to keep our pledge and that is to bring you information that you can use to make informed decisions information that holds the powerful accountable and that gives voice to the voiceless.<\/p>\n<p>Our aim for this fundraising drive is to get ourselves to more than 2,000 sustaining members. We\u2019re about four hundred members away from it. If you want to join the ranks of the 1,600 people that have already become sustaining members of Intercepted, we urge you to go to theintercept.com\/join.<\/p>\n<p>If you can\u2019t afford to make a donation, tell people about the show, review us on all of the platforms where you listen to your podcasts and also join our Facebook group, which is simply Intercepted Listeners. And you can discuss issues, and news, and ideas with other people that also listen to this show. I sometimes pop into those discussions, as do other staff members here at Intercepted. You can join with other people that are like-minded or are there also because they want to have discussion or they want to have debate. Also, you can share our work on social media platforms \u2014 the biggest thing is letting people know. If you want to help us push to over 2,000 members, you can do so now by going to the thentercept.com\/join.<\/p>\n<p>All right I\u2019m going to shut up right now. On with the show.<\/p>\n<p>[Musical interlude]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramon Padilla:<\/strong>\u00a0Ladies and gentlemen, I have the honor of introducing President George W. Bush. [scattered claps]<\/p>\n<p><strong>George W. Bush:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh hey! Thank you all. Thank you. Ok! Padilla!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Will Ferrell As Ricky Bobby:<\/strong>\u00a0Hi.<\/p>\n<p><strong>George W. Bush<\/strong>: Gracias.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RB:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m here to talk to you about the packs of stray dogs that control most of the major cities in North America.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GWB:<\/strong>\u00a0This effort is broad, systemic, and stealthy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RB:<\/strong>\u00a0If you see a stray dog, don\u2019t call the authorities. Approach it on your own, with a rope or a broom stick.<\/p>\n<p><strong>George W. Bush:<\/strong>\u00a0Ultimately, this assault won\u2019t succeed. [scattered applause]<\/p>\n<p><strong>RB:<\/strong>\u00a0Stray dogs, they\u2019re not your friend. Or they could be.<\/p>\n<p><strong>George W. Bush:<\/strong>\u00a0With God\u2019s help. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joe Scarborough:<\/strong>\u00a0George W. Bush loves his country.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Fernand Amandi:<\/strong>\u00a0President Bush now, and the extended Bush family, are acting as the conscience for the country.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Male newscaster:<\/strong>\u00a0Nearly 461,0000 men, women and children died in Iraq.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anushay Hossain:<\/strong>\u00a0Only Trump can make you feel nostalgic for the Bush era.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nancy Pelosi:\u00a0<\/strong>I wish he were president now. I wish Mitt Romney were president. I wish John McCain were president.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joe Scarborough:<\/strong>\u00a0Who the hell would ever boo George W. Bush?<\/p>\n<p>[\u201cWho\u2019s the Boss?\u201d TV Theme Song]<\/p>\n<p>[Musical interlude]<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0This is intercepted.<\/p>\n<p>[Musical interlude]<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m Jeremy Scahill, coming to you from the offices of The Intercept in New York City, and this is episode 33 of Intercepted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Gen. Joseph Dunford<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong>\u00a0We owe the families as much information as we can find out about what happened, and we owe the American people an explanation of what their men and women were doing at this particular time. And, when I say that, I mean the men and women in harm\u2019s way anywhere in the world, that they should know what the mission is and what we\u2019re trying to accomplish when we\u2019re there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Over the past week, there\u2019s been an intense focus on what exactly happened to four U.S. soldiers in the African nation of Niger on October 4th. What we have been told is very little and what we\u2019ve been told is based on information provided by the military and by the Trump Administration.<\/p>\n<p>And what that picture looks like, as of now, is that a small group of Special Operations forces were on a sensitive mission in Niger. That they were traveling in so-called soft vehicles, meaning non-armored vehicles and that they were ambushed.<\/p>\n<p>And during this ambush, three U.S. soldiers were killed, two others were seriously wounded and another soldier, Sergeant La David Johnson, went missing and his body was not recovered until a couple of days later.<\/p>\n<p>Now, what the exact nature of that mission was, or why they were in an armored vehicle, we do not know yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong>\u00a0And the loss of our troops is under investigation. We, in the Department of Defense, like to know what we\u2019re talking about before we talk. And so, we do not have all the accurate information yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0In classic Donald Trump form, he has made the story about something other than \u201cwhat were they doing there?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Donald J. Trump:<\/strong>\u00a0I was \u2014Look I\u2019ve called many people, and I would think that every one of them appreciated it. I was very surprised to see this, to be honest.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0He has attacked the widow of Sergeant Johnson after she publicly said that she was shocked when Trump appeared to not know her husband\u2019s name when he called her to offer his condolences. The president, she said:<\/p>\n<p><strong>Myeshia Johnson:<\/strong>\u00a0He knew what he signed up for. But it hurts anyways. And I was \u2014 it made me cry because I was very angry at the tone of his voice and how he said it. He couldn\u2019t remember my husband name. The only way he remembered my husband name because he told me he had my husband\u2019s report in front of him. And that\u2019s when he actually said, La David.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Which, on the surface, sounds like a very callous thing to say to a widow. Trump, for his part says that he meant nothing but respect, and that it was a dignified conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Trump and his allies have cast aspersions on Johnson\u2019s widow as well as on her Congresswoman Frederica Wilson of Florida. Some of the attacks on the congresswoman have been vile, with one of Trump\u2019s sons saying on Twitter that she looks like a stripper. Real classy.<\/p>\n<p>But aside from the horrible attacks on a Gold Star widow or these grotesque attacks on the appearance of Congresswoman Frederica Wilson that have been emanating from the administration or from the president\u2019s family or from his prominent supporters, this episode, meaning what happened in Niger and then the way that it has been covered in the media and discussed by politicians, it\u2019s actually a classic example of how covert U.S. operations are dealt with in general in the United States, both in the media and on Capitol Hill.<!--more--><\/p>\n<p>You have senators and congressmen rushing to microphones to question what were we doing in Niger? Why with the troops there? If you\u2019re a Democrat, it\u2019s: What was Donald Trump doing sending U.S. troops into Niger? And these congressmen feign ignorance as to the extent of the U.S. military footprint across the globe, particularly those Congress members that are on military committees or intelligence committees or oversight committees. They know exactly how extended U.S. military operations are across this world. So, this level of feigned ignorance: it\u2019s either a symbol of total incompetence as lawmakers, or it\u2019s a despicable act of partisan or political theater.<\/p>\n<p>Since 9\/11, the United States has embraced the concept that Donald Rumsfeld famously sketched out in one of his snowflake memos that the world is a battlefield, and that the U.S. has the right to send its commandos wherever, whenever, to kill whomever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Donald Rumsfeld:<\/strong>\u00a0We are in a sense, seeing the definition of a new battlefield in the world. The 20th, 21st century battlefield.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0and the US has been doing this since George W. Bush, but through Barack Obama and through Donald Trump, with essentially no meaningful oversight or investigation from the U.S. Congress except when something goes wrong.<\/p>\n<p>Listen to this: in 2009, the U.S. Special Operations Command had its forces deployed in sixty countries around the world. By the time Donald Trump was elected president, that number had swelled to 138 countries. That was under Barack Obama. And the number continues to rise under Donald Trump.<\/p>\n<p>U.S. commandos were doing covert operations in Niger under Barack Obama and they were there under Donald Trump. In some countries, these commandos are categorized as trainers or advisers \u2014 that\u2019s what the U.S. called its troops that were deployed in the early stages of the Vietnam War, too, so take that phrase with a grain of salt. But these forces also conduct raids, drone strikes, assassinations, kidnappings \u2014 all manner of covert operations. And the only time we ever really hear about it is when U.S. personnel die, when journalists or human rights groups document civilian deaths, or as in the case of the raid on Osama bin Laden\u2019s compound, the U.S. wants to declare victory and celebrate the awesomeness of its commandos or its covert actions.<\/p>\n<p>Some Democrats right now want to portray this situation in Niger as Trump\u2019s Benghazi. But I think that\u2019s a very bad comparison. In fact, Benghazi should not even be viewed as Obama or Hillary\u2019s Benghazi. The real scandal here is that the U.S. does these operations all the time, all over the world, and we never pay any attention to it until something goes wrong, or, unless it\u2019s valuable for propaganda purposes. The family of the four soldiers killed in Niger have a right to know why their loved ones died.<\/p>\n<p>Sergeant La David Johnson\u2019s widow has a right to know where her husband\u2019s body was for two days and why it wasn\u2019t recovered until then. In fact, all of us have a right to know the answer to that. But we also have a right to know why on earth the U.S. has commandos in a majority of the world\u2019s countries. By just chasing each incident, where the CIA or the Joint Special Operations Command conducts an operation that we hear about instead of actually investigating the entire program, nothing\u2019s ever going to change.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s the same bad apple theory from Abu Ghraib. \u201cOh, it was an anomaly. Just a few soldiers did it. We\u2019ll prosecute the lowest ranking people and move on.\u201d It\u2019s the same thing. It\u2019s like a cat chasing a ball of yarn in the room: you\u2019re just focused on this one thing, but you\u2019re losing sight of the big picture.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a direct arc that stretches from George W. Bush through Barack Obama to Donald Trump of covert actions done in secrecy with little-to-no oversight by the U.S. Congress or the courts.<\/p>\n<p>This entire system \u2014 the night raids, the drone strikes, the secret prisons, the snatching of people \u2014 all of it needs to be investigated and explained to the people. Niger won\u2019t be the last of these. Not by a long shot. And part of the reason why is that the public is being taught to view these incidents as one-off disasters: Niger for Trump, Benghazi for Obama, and on, and on. This is now the American way of waging wars. There are U.S. troops positioned in 138-plus countries right now. What are they doing there? Who\u2019s going to explain that? No one ever wants to touch that because then you need to ask questions about the fallacy of American exceptionalism and our nation\u2019s addiction to militarism.<\/p>\n<p>So, the outrage is often episodic and it\u2019s used, particularly by politicians, to make short-term political points. Until Congress actually does its job and conducts an open, meaning public, and wide-ranging inquiry into what the hell the U.S. special operations forces are doing in 138 countries, or what the CIA is doing across the globe, then they\u2019re not doing their jobs.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s been the reality for a long, long time, under both Democrats and Republicans.<\/p>\n<p>[Musical interlude]<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re going to kick off today\u2019s show by taking a deep dive into the world of Vice President Mike Pence.<\/p>\n<p>The great investigative journalist Jane Mayer has a fascinating expos\u00e9 on Pence in the recent issue of The New Yorker magazine. The title of it is, \u201cThe Danger of President Mike Pence.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jane is one of the best journalists of our time and she was one of the first reporters to crack open the CIA torture and extraordinary rendition program under Bush and Cheney. She has written a number of books. Her latest work has focused on investigating the Koch brothers and other shady right-wing or Republican financiers. Her most recent book is called \u201cDark Money: The Hidden History of the Billionaires Behind the Rise of the Radical Right.\u201d Jane Mayer joins me now.<\/p>\n<p>Jane, welcome to Intercepted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jane Mayer:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you so much for having me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0What I really found extraordinary about your piece is this notion of Mike Pence, not really as a principled conservative Christian, but as a real opportunist willing to set aside what he claimed were his bedrock principles in favor of whatever his kind of corporate paymasters or political expediency dictates he should do. Is that your sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And that was a surprise to me too. I mean, I think everybody had thought of him as kind of defining social conservatism and evangelical Christianity, and, in fact, what the reporting showed was that he\u2019s very ambitious and he\u2019s made his deals when he needs to.<\/p>\n<p>And, in fact, his whole career really has been nurtured, supported, and sponsored by huge right-wing corporate interests. And I hadn\u2019t realized that myself until I dug into it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0There was a sense that Mike Pence was kind of this like shitty-magic-penny to buy the Christian right, sort of like calm with the idea of Trump being president.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0He definitely was. He was the bridge. He was the seal of good housekeeping that enabled the Christian right to come on board.<\/p>\n<p>And, you know, but to go into your first question about the surprise of how ambitious he was and how willing he was to cut deals when he needed to, I mean it shouldn\u2019t have been a surprise because the biggest deal and the biggest sort of Faustian bargain that he\u2019s made was getting on the ticket with Donald Trump, who, of course, defines everything that Christian evangelicals say that they dislike, you know? His willingness to make that deal should have tipped everybody off.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0You were able to get some pretty powerful quotes or assertions from Senator Sheldon Whitehouse. He, of course, is the Democratic senator from Rhode Island and one of the things that he said to you was that if Mike Pence were to become president, that the government would be run by the Koch brothers. Maybe you can unpack that and explain the connection between \u2014 because the Koch brothers aren\u2019t known as fanatical Christian supremacists.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I mean and, so, isn\u2019t that interesting? The Koch\u2019s are libertarians, or you could call them neoliberals. They are supposedly people who believe in kind of social liberalism. But there they are having sponsored the career of Mike Pence. And I think it\u2019s a real tip off to what the Koch\u2019s really care about.<\/p>\n<p>The issue that matters to them is not any of the social issues, no matter what they\u2019re saying. What matters to them is allowing business to take over the power in the country, and particularly their own business. So, they\u2019re pushing back on regulations, and they\u2019re pushing back on taxes and trying to shrink the power of the government and replace it with their own power.<\/p>\n<p>And Mike Pence has been willing to carry their water on that. I hadn\u2019t realized, despite writing \u201cDark Money,\u201d a book about the Kochs, I hadn\u2019t realized the extent to which they were working hand-in-glove with Pence and vice versa and how it began.<\/p>\n<p>And it really goes back to 2009 in earnest. I mean it starts before then, in his working for think tanks that are funded by corporations and huge right-wing donors such as the Kochs.<\/p>\n<p>But in 2009, there was a piece of legislation moving forward in Congress that was a huge threat to Koch Industries. And that was a tax on carbon pollution, something that would make the fossil fuel companies like Koch Industries pay for what they were doing to the environment.<\/p>\n<p>And Pence really took up their cause in 2009, and he echoed their talking points. He took a petition that was created by the Koch\u2019s main political group, Americans for Prosperity, and he got tons of signatures on it in Congress and eventually managed to help kill that bill in the Senate so it never happened. And also to kind of permanently align the Republican Party against doing anything to try to deal with climate change. That was a gift of major proportions to Koch Industries. That cemented his relationship with the Kochs, and they then started just pouring money into him.<\/p>\n<p>They sponsored the next phases of his career and they really began to push for the idea of Pence himself becoming a presidential candidate and they were hoping it would come out that way. But Pence kind of screwed it up. He goes back to Indiana, becomes governor and he\u2019s really a failure. And he makes decisions and takes positions that hurt him so much that he can\u2019t run for president right away.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0You point out that Mike Pence was in Congress for twelve years and never, never once authored a successful bill. That\u2019s kind of astonishing when you realize like this guy was basically a failure in getting any legislation passed. However, he used every platform he had, not to be good at that job, but to be kind of a shock troop for whoever his funders were or wherever the support was coming from that he thought would most put him in a prime position to gain national recognition or national power.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0He actually rose to a pretty high position in the leadership, the number three position of the Republican house, and he used that position also to push the Republican Party far, far, to the right.<\/p>\n<p>So, you find him very early on supporting the rise of the Tea Party and speaking out at Tea Party rallies and talking about defunding the whole government. He wanted to defund Planned Parenthood or he was going to shut down the government, he said.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike Pence:<\/strong>\u00a0We repealed Obamacare, lock, stock, and barrel on the floor of the House of Representatives. And we voted to cut spending to pre-stimulus, pre-bailout levels, defunding Obamacare and ending all public funding for Planned Parenthood of America. [audience cheers and applause] That\u2019s what we voted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0So, he\u2019s taking these radical positions that, at the time, were considered shocking. But he\u2019s part of this whole effort to push the Republican Party in line with its far-right economic interests and push it further and further to the right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0I read your piece and I get the sense that he\u2019s kind of this far-right wing, almost Manchurian Candidate, where it\u2019s like they\u2019ve programmed someone, you know, that can pass as kind of a Christian for the needs of convincing people that he\u2019s with them. But really he seems to do whatever the Koch brothers tell him to right now, or whoever else is paying the bills.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0Well there is an economic, fiscal side of the conservatism he espouses and people hadn\u2019t paid that much attention to it. And it\u2019s just as radical as his views are on social issues.<\/p>\n<p>You know, many of the people that work for him are people who come directly out of the Koch world. So, which to me was very interesting in part because I really believe that the reason that Trump was elected was because he broke with the orthodoxy of the far-right donors. They had moved so far away from the base that I think there was an opening for Trump to run on, to be more of a populist and to say things like \u201cyou need Social Security, you need Medicare.\u201d These things were ideas that really appealed to the base of the Republican Party, and to many Americans who weren\u2019t even that political.<\/p>\n<p>And he also talked about the corruption of the government and how he was going to stick it to the big donors, and specifically stick it to the Kochs.<\/p>\n<p>But he hasn\u2019t done that. So I was interested in why. And, in particular, I think part of the reason is that he\u2019s naive about government he has no experience in government, he\u2019s bored by the details. And who is at his side who really does understand it? It\u2019s Mike Pence.<\/p>\n<p>And so, Mike Pence runs the transition and fills the Trump Administration with people who are really Koch people. And so even though Trump has run a campaign that\u2019s populist, he\u2019s running a government that is Koch-ian in its nature, and more, and more so. I mean we see it with the so-called tax reform plan.<\/p>\n<p>Because you really got an infiltration going on in the Trump Administration by the big old-donor interests that have been trying to grab control for decades now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Talk about how Mike Pompeo ends up as CIA director and his connections to Pence and the Koch brothers.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0The reporting on this comes partly from a number of people I interviewed who were inside the transition team. And, one of them in particular was saying to me, \u201cMike Pompeo was not even on the radar for Trump. He wouldn\u2019t have known him from anybody else.\u201d Until like a couple days before he actually appointed him to be running the CIA. He came in, he had a nice interview with Trump, and like a day or two later was named to run the CIA.<\/p>\n<p>He didn\u2019t know \u2014 you know Trump wouldn\u2019t have known where he came from. But where did he come from? He was the congressman from Wichita, Kansas. He was the Koch\u2019s Congressman, someone whose business the Koch\u2019s had helped support.<\/p>\n<p>Within the Administration he and Mike Pence are very close. And Pence has hosted an evangelical Bible study group that\u2019s for cabinet members and Pompeo often comes to it. And it\u2019s led by a preacher named Ralph Drollinger who has been incredibly controversial. In California, he wrote some essays that suggested that women who served in the state legislature were sinners if they had children because they were leaving their children at home to do public service and that that was literally a sin.<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, I mean, talk about someone who\u2019s got sort of anti-female, old fashioned and almost dark age ideas of women, that would be Ralph Drollinger. And there he is because Pence sponsored him, running a Bible study group.<\/p>\n<p>Though it\u2019s interesting, there is a female member of it, too, someone who you\u2019ve written about, Betsy DeVos, the secretary of education, and she attends these sessions but presumably her children are not little and at home.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0You talked to Steve Bannon for this piece, which I thought was quite interesting that Bannon agreed to talk to you, although in some ways maybe not surprising because Bannon now is threatening to try to run Senate candidates against everybody except Ted Cruz. He\u2019s his own particular kind of force. But Bannon was the big one who was saying, you know, the globalists inside the administration are the ones that Trump has to worry about and the globalists in the deep state. What were the insights you gained from Steve Bannon about everything that\u2019s happened in the nine or ten months of Trump?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0Well I mean specifically what Bannon said to me I thought was just amazing which was: He feared that Pence would be a president who would be owned by the Kochs. The thing is that Bannon has long been a critic of the Koch brothers because Bannon sees himself as a new kind of nationalist populist and he sees the Kochs as hurting middle class people. And so, he\u2019s in a different place. It\u2019s not to say that he doesn\u2019t have his own corporate sponsors \u2014 in fact, his biggest backer is Robert Mercer, the hedge fund magnate. But Mercer is more of a nationalist and a populist \u2014 I guess, to some extent, it\u2019s hard to know.<\/p>\n<p>But at any rate, Bannon comes out is as a critic of the sort of big corporate donors who he sees as pulling the party away from his people, the kind of working class and middle class white guys of the country.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, one of the people that I\u2019ve written a lot about, Erik Prince, is one of the names, the founder of the Blackwater mercenary company, one of the names that has been floated as a potential candidate on Bannon\u2019s slate, if you will \u2014 possibly in Michigan, but it looks more likely in in Wyoming. And Erik Prince would regularly call into Steve Bannon\u2019s radio show on Breitbart and pontificate on all sorts of issues.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Bannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Turn to Erik Prince. Give us, Erik, a professional in this area. If you want to take the fight to ISIS, if we want to destroy ISIS, if they\u2019re the existential threat that they say they are to us, what do we do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik Prince:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, here\u2019s what the Trump administration needs to do because I can\u2019t imagine the Clinton administration contemplating actually ending the ISIS scourge. It\u2019s not just a matter of cutting off the head of the snake, it\u2019s about chewing up and destroying the entire snake.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s sort of was like akin to like Bin Laden\u2019s guys are dropping a tape off with Al Jazeera. Erik Prince would like call into Steve Bannon\u2019s show. And I would imagine that Erik Prince fully has bought into Bannon\u2019s kind of world view, you know, particularly when it comes to kind of right-wing, libertarian, populist nationalist tendencies. What\u2019s your sense overall of what Bannon is doing right now, given that he\u2019s become such a prominent figure and clearly has his own following?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0One of the things that Bannon has been fighting is what he calls the Empire Project and when he was in the White House, he was pushing back against the idea of sort of the endless war in endless number of countries, which he sees as taking the lives of too many of the kinds of people who he is championing. And he was trying to privatize some of these conflicts and reduce the defense spending, supposedly \u2014 I mean this was the idea.<\/p>\n<p>And he so he was pushing the idea that is friend Erik Prince would use his private mercenary company to take over at least security in some of these projects, and the military was dead set against it and created huge fights, but that\u2019s one place where the two of them are allied.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Erik Prince also was a financier of Mike Pence\u2019s political career. And, in fact, in 2004, in the aftermath of the Blackwater operatives being killed in Fallujah and strung up from the bridge, Mike Pence organized the welcome reception for Erik Prince on to Capitol Hill and that\u2019s really when Erik Prince\u2019s mercenary business took off. And it was Mike Pence that welcomed him there, which is interesting given that Pence and Bannon seemed to have been on the opposite ends of the spectrum ideologically within the Trump Administration. I would have thought that Pence would have also sort of, on this issue, joined forces with Bannon to say, \u201cHey, General Mattis, you should consider our buddy Erik Prince here and what he\u2019s proposing.\u201d So, that to me is fascinating \u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0I actually don\u2019t think, I think you\u2019re on to something there. Because I don\u2019t think that Pence was dead-set against Prince\u2019s idea. Pence attends the principals committee meetings which are where, you know, that the most important foreign policy arguments take place within the White House. And my sense was, and I think Bannon said to me at some point, that Pence was no fan of what he called the \u201cempire project,\u201d meaning the sort of endless expansion of these wars, and that Pence was asking some tough questions about it.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s not to say that Pence was backing Prince particularly, either. I mean the thing about going back to the very beginning of the questions you raised, the thing about Pence is that he\u2019s kind of weasel-y about many positions. You know he\u2019s not someone who you see an incredibly strong backbone, who gets out front and tells, for instance, president Trump when he\u2019s wrong. He\u2019s very careful and very behind the scenes.<\/p>\n<p>But anyway, so they may have had more common ground on that than people realize.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Who brought Pence and Trump together and how did Pence end up on that ticket?\u00a0<strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, to some extent, it was the Trump kids who really created that shotgun marriage, and according to the people that I was interviewing, Jared Kushner in particular had a longstanding family grievance against Chris Christie, who had prosecuted his father when Chris Christie was the U.S. attorney in New Jersey. And so there was kind of a personal beef there. But yet, Trump, it seems, really liked Christie and was kind of leaning that way. I actually interviewed Trump during that period and he sounded very torn and it turns out that even after Trump had had a sort of, what was supposed to have been the big coming together with Pence \u2014 they\u2019d had dinner and then they\u2019d had a family breakfast together and the Trump family kids came in and everybody was sort of on the same playbook and word came out that Pence was going to take the job, as he said, \u201cin a heartbeat\u201d \u2014 that very night, apparently, Trump called Chris Christie and continued sort of the romance and was saying, you know, \u201cAre you ready?\u201d And Christie said, \u201cReady for what?\u201d And Trump said, \u201cTo do this thing with me.\u201d And Christie said, \u201cAre you asking?\u201d And Trump sort of said, \u201cWell, are you ready?\u201d And, you know it was this kind of endless flirtation, and, \u201cStay by your phone,\u201d Trump said to Christie.<\/p>\n<p>It was like he couldn\u2019t quite get himself to be comfortable with Pence. And even after they named to Pence publicly, Trump was still asking his advisers, you know, \u201cCan I get out of this? Can I back out of it?\u201d Now I got to be fair, though, to say since then, you know, Trump has been fully on board with Pence and considers it one of his best decisions, apparently, according to many people who I interviewed.<\/p>\n<p>And the description he\u2019s given about why he thinks Pence is so great what Pence was speaking at the Republican National Convention. And I talked to Newt Gingrich who was behind the scenes talking to Trump when Pence was speaking, and Trump turned to him and said, \u201cIsn\u2019t he perfect? He looks like he was sent by central casting.\u201d So, Trump loves the way Pence looks like a vice president.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Well that sounds like the thing you\u2019re really looking for, someone that just looks like a vice president. However, it underscores something that another historian you interviewed said that Pence is basically the sycophant-in-chief. He really is used by Trump on a regular basis. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever seen a vice president carted out as though he\u2019s at a pep rally to introduce the president anywhere near the numbers that Trump has carted Pence out. It\u2019s almost like he puts him in this position that\u2019s intended to say, \u201cHere\u2019s my carnival barker or here\u2019s my hype man that\u2019s going to come out for a couple minutes and then the real king shows up.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, one of the people I talked to, I tried to speak to some former vice presidents, and one in particular, Walter Mondale, found it so demeaning because Mondale actually tried to negotiate a contract when he became vice president with Jimmy Carter to make the role into a more substantial role, and something that\u2019s more dignified. But he\u2019s watching Pence, and he said to me, \u201cYou know: what\u2019s he doing? I ask myself every day.\u201d And he was, he looks at Pence as sort of acting like an emcee for the president, you know?<\/p>\n<p>And it\u2019s not stupid; it\u2019s shrewd. He is the member of the White House team that has not gotten in trouble, as far as we know, with the president. He knows that the president likes to be flattered, and you know, you can see, probably biding his time. And that\u2019s why I ended the piece with the quote from the Bible that Pence keeps over his mantle in the vice-presidential residence, which talks about how God has his future in mind.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Mike Pence seems to have also been put in a position, particularly with the General Flynn situation, where either he was being lied to and then was sent to the wolves, basically, to repeat the lie in public, or he did know and took a bullet essentially for the president\u2019s reputation, or the reputation of the Administration. Is that your sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean it\u2019s hard to know for sure. There\u2019s one meeting that would clarify the answer to that and we don\u2019t know exactly what happened there. But Pence was in a meeting at the White House when Trump announced that he wanted to get rid of James Comey, as the head of the FBI and he was angry about Comey doing an investigation into him, and the Russian ties. And they cooked up the idea that they would get the Justice Department to go out front and recommend that he get rid of Comey, and that would give him some cover to do it. And it wouldn\u2019t just look like obstruction of justice.<\/p>\n<p>And Pence was in that meeting, but until we really know what he said, what he heard, what the conversation was like, it\u2019s very hard to know for sure whether he was, you know, party to obstruction or whether somehow he absented himself at the right moments. It\u2019s just really hard to know.<\/p>\n<p>But any rate he came out and said:<\/p>\n<p><strong>MP:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me be very clear that the president\u2019s decision to accept the recommendation of the Deputy Attorney General and the Attorney General to remove Director Comey as the head of the FBI was based solely and exclusively on his commitment to the best interest of the American people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0There were a few little weasel words there that give him some outs, but he basically spread the party line that gave the president cover and then of course the president came out just a few hours later and said:<\/p>\n<p><strong>Donald J. Trump:<\/strong>\u00a0He\u2019s a showboat. He\u2019s a grandstander. I was going to fire Comey. My decision. There\u2019s no good time to do it, by the way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0Which left Pence out there looking like a, you know, complete chump, or a liar, and I think you have to know more before you can really say for sure, and I think we may know more at some point because I think Mueller\u2019s going to go into that meeting very carefully and hopefully it will be more transparent and then we\u2019ll see.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s a level of arrogance about the Russia investigation, specifically on Trump\u2019s part that he you know he himself has this arrogance about it, where either he knows that there\u2019s nothing there that\u2019s going to stick or he just seems to believe that he\u2019ll be able to weather it with his Twitter account and by lying \u2014 I mean what\u2019s your sense of what\u2019s going to happen there. I mean are they going to get something to stick to Trump himself?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0Who knows? I mean I\u2019m not like in the prediction business. But I did interview Tony Schwartz who wrote \u201cThe Art of the Deal\u201d for Trump, and one of the things he talks about is how for Trump, truth is so malleable. You know, he doesn\u2019t care really, what\u2019s true, what\u2019s not true, what should be true \u2014 it\u2019s all kind of the same for him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, that\u2019s not how the courts work, though.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it\u2019s not. It seems like at the moment you know Mueller is pushing very hard against Paul Manafort, and probably against General Mike Flynn, that seems to be where he\u2019s most likely to find sort of legal violations. But there is the possibility of an obstruction case here: obstruction by Trump, and potentially obstruction by Pence, neither of them are off the hook.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, one thing I can say about being a Washington reporter for The New Yorker is there\u2019s not been a single uninteresting day these days.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Jane Mayer we\u2019re going to leave it there. Thank you very much for joining us on Intercepted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JM:<\/strong>\u00a0Great to be with you. Thanks so much, Jeremy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Jane Mayer is an investigative journalist at the New Yorker Magazine. Her latest piece is called The Danger of President Mike Pence, and her most recent book is \u201cDark Money: The Hidden History of the Billionaires Behind the Rise of the Radical Right.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You are listening to Intercepted. When we come back, we\u2019re going to talk to the famed Chinese dissident Ai Weiwei. He has an incredible new documentary film called Human Flow.<\/p>\n<p>And we\u2019re also going to be talking to the drummer of the band Deerhoof, and we\u2019re going to hear some new music from them. Stay with us.<\/p>\n<p>[Musical interlude]<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Hey, everybody, this is Jeremy again. And I am not going to take up much of your time. I just want to remind you that we are in the midst of our fundraising drive here, our membership support drive for this podcast, for Intercepted. And we would be honored if you\u2019d join the ranks of the 1,600 or so people who have already become sustaining members of Intercepted. You can do that by going to the intercept.com\/join. Our goal is to try to get over 2,000 members this year that have become sustaining supporters of this program.<\/p>\n<p>We are just blown away by the level of support that we\u2019ve already been offered and we are so close to that goal that we\u2019ve set for ourselves of 2,000 members, sustaining members, of Intercepted by the end of this calendar year.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re out there and you appreciate the show, when you are in a financial position to support this program, particularly for someone or some people who aren\u2019t in a financial position to support it, your donation to this show keeps it free for everyone to listen to. Maybe you want to send a pledge note on behalf of a person in your life, or a group that is engaged in a social justice struggle in your local community. Maybe you want to do a challenge grant where you pool together with some friends and you pool your resources and you say, \u201cWe\u2019ll match dollar for dollar any contributions under this mission, up to $2,000 dollars or up to $5,000.\u201d Whatever level you can pledge, we really appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p>Once again, I\u2019ll shut up. Back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[Musical interlude]<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0And we are back here on Intercepted. When the refugee crisis on Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere is discussed in the U.S. media, it\u2019s often portrayed simply as masses of people fleeing the violence of groups like ISIS or al Qaeda or al Shabaab.<\/p>\n<p>But U.S. military actions, including the intense bombings that have taken place in a number of countries, under both president Obama and president Trump have played a major role in creating the conditions that have forced so many people to flee. Not just ISIS, not just al Qaeda, but the United States government. So, too, has the U.S. government and corporate support for dictators around the world. Support for repressive security forces and this massive flow of arms sales, both illicit and perfectly legal.<\/p>\n<p>Add to this, then, the increasingly deadly role that Russian forces are playing, particularly in Syria, and the world is witnessing a horrifying spike in the number of people documented to have been forcibly displaced from their homes. More than 65 million people according to the United Nations. From Syria, to South Sudan and Central America\u2019s northern triangle, more people than ever are fleeing violence, persecution, human rights abuses that are caused by their own governments, by terror groups and by outside forces. Like the United States, or Iran, or Russia. They\u2019re also escaping the sometimes-lethal impact of climate change.<\/p>\n<p>At the same time, political powers across the world, including in the United States and Europe, are building more walls or proposing the building of more walls, implementing harsh anti-immigrant and anti-refugee policies.<\/p>\n<p>At the same time, far-right politicians are using the refugee crisis to incite xenophobic fears which then can lead to hate crimes.<\/p>\n<p>Chinese artist and human rights activist Ai Weiwei has spent his entire adult life under the watch of Chinese intelligence and security forces. And he\u2019s widely viewed as one of the most well-known dissidents in China.<\/p>\n<p>Ai Weiwei has a new film out that paints a harrowing portrait of the scale of these mass migrations that we\u2019re witnessing. The film is called Human Flow. And he timed the film\u2019s release with a gigantic public installation of his artworks throughout New York City. It\u2019s called \u201cGood Fences Make Good Neighbors.\u201d From a golden cage in New York\u2019s Central Park, to fences erected at bus stops, and two hundred photographs from refugee camps, Ai Weiwei\u2019s migrant-themed works around New York City forced their way into high traffic areas to disrupt the flow of people.<\/p>\n<p>Well, Intercepted\u2019s production assistant Elise Swain spoke to onlookers at one of those installations in Washington Square Park. Here\u2019s what people had to say about what they saw and felt being next to the artwork.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 1:<\/strong>\u00a0So, it looks like a giant bird cage in the middle of the Washington Square Park arch, and at the bottom of the bird cage, about halfway through in the center, is a cutout mirrored on the inside.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 2:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s really beautiful. I think when you stand back, it does look like two people, for me personally.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 3:<\/strong>\u00a0To me, it looks like maybe two people, or maybe one person with a backpack on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 4:<\/strong>\u00a0Like, this nice silhouette, if you were a human being, or more of one human being, walking like in a tunnel all together, we were all like squeezing, coming through.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 5:<\/strong>\u00a0When you go inside it, you see your reflection, but you\u2019re like \u2013 you\u2019re distorted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 6:<\/strong>\u00a0But I think that reflection is pretty cool in terms of not only us feeling like there\u2019s other people who are going through hell in their countries \u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 7:<\/strong>\u00a0This is the age of people like putting fences to prevent people from like crossing borders.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 6:<\/strong>\u00a0And have to be in a cage for some reason as a protection of this crazy world we live in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 8:<\/strong>\u00a0Confinement. That\u2019s what I think the cage is. Because I\u2019ve been in cages before. So \u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Elise Swain:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not a good feeling.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bystander 8:<\/strong>\u00a0Hell no!<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Ai Weiwei\u2019s new film, Human Flow, is playing in cities across the United States and soon will be launching globally. And he joins us now. Ai Weiwei, welcome to Intercepted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ai Weiwei:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0This is such an important film. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever seen a film that has portrayed, in a human way, the idea of numbers and mass forced migration. When you set out to make this film, was that part of what you were trying to make real to people who are not there?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0At the very beginning, I was very frustrated by the situation and have almost no knowledge about what the refugees were about, so I jumped in and started with my iPhone to shooting the people getting off the shore from the Syrian war. And I realize this is going to be a large task to take, and, you know, it is always such a complexity.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Human Flow:<\/strong>\u00a0This extraordinary event that has unfolded has also impacted Europe in many ways. We\u2019re here right now on Lesbos Island. This is the point when 1\/2 a million people, most of them refugees, set foot and entered Europe, an extraordinary way that people have been coming through. In just the last year alone, over 1 million have come to Europe through the Mediterranean Sea.<\/p>\n<p>And although these are movements that we haven\u2019t seen in decades, in fact, it hasn\u2019t been since the Second World War that so many have fled and come to Europe. It\u2019s still something that we need to consider in the global context, where so many millions are actually displaced.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0So, it ended up we travelled in 23 nations, 40 camps, and interviewed 600 people. And come with 900 hours of footage. And the situation grows very dramatically. You have to do several locations at the same time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Now the film doesn\u2019t really have recurring characters. You return to the scene, for instance, on the Macedonian border. How did you decide how to tell that story?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess most refugee films are really focused on an individual character or a family or, you know, a story. As artists, you can have a painting or you can have a photograph or you can have something, you know, more abstract, or in between. Sometimes it gets very large scale, and sometimes very intimate details. So, it\u2019s a collage. It\u2019s \u2014 I would say it\u2019s like a broken mirror. You have a lot of fragmentary flecks, angles about the reality.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0On a human level, how did it affect you? Not just what you showed on camera, because you\u2019re filming with your phone and you\u2019re also being filmed, but if you ignore the cameras, just as a human being, what was it like for you to witness what you saw and to be among these people that are forced from their homes?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0I was also a kind-of refugee. My father was exiled as an anti-revolutionary poet.<\/p>\n<p>And I grew up with him in 20 years in very hard conditions. So, when I met those people, they\u2019re so familiar, whatever they do there. You know, their condition. They\u2019re, they\u2019re both physically and mentally can see myself in them or see them in myself. So, it\u2019s easy for me to communicate and to take part of this whole production.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0One of the, the lighter moments in the film. You\u2019re buying mandarins, or oranges, on the back of the \u2014 from a guy on the back of a truck, it looks like, or at a table. And my perception of it was that you were, you knew that he was overcharging you kind of, in a very interesting way, negotiated with him. I used that sort of as a metaphor for how these people are being ripped off, in general. Was that at all what you were doing with that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think we carefully selected a part, and to have myself in my interaction with them is always serving some purpose, like, I try to pick up this fruit, rather than the other one, he\u2019s trying to give me some of what he wants to give to me. And it\u2019s very much like selections of refugees in the European process, and also he kind of thought my money could be fake, he look at the \u2014 to examine the money. So, all of those instances, it\u2019s very little, but it shows a quality or intention about this kind of distrust, or selectively to always chose in those situations.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0You portray, in a very strong way, by using the Macedonian border when the European Union countries started shutting it down. Talk about that particular camp that you were in on the Macedonian border and the fate of the people that were there. Why did they come there and what happened?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0Most refugees when they landed on Greece, Greece is not a country they want to be in. They want to go to Germany or Sweden or, you know, all those nations already have more open attitude, or maybe better conditions for working.<\/p>\n<p>So they have look, walking across this so-called Balkan Road. So, the Macedonian border, between Greece, is the place where they\u2019re being stopped. You know, they suddenly shut off the fence, the door, and all people, the flow stops there.<\/p>\n<p>So, accumulated about 13-14,000 people for months without an explanation, or even, it\u2019s very limited life support. So that\u2019s why we paid a lot of attention to the condition.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Human Flow Clip:\u00a0<\/strong>The officials came here. And told them, \u201cLook, there\u2019s no way you\u2019re going to get papers to continue, so you\u2019re going to be deported. Either you go voluntarily or we arrest you.\u201d And yesterday it started with police coming here and actively arresting people. There are very afraid of being brought back. I mean there\u2019s a reason why these people are here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0You know the president of the United States, he\u2019s a big fan of building walls and fences.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0And also, not only building walls, but also going to push away many immigrants that have been living in the United States for decades, or even born here. Many of them even contributed to the U.S. economy. You know, they do jobs nobody wants to do. And so those people are going to be pushed away by the new policy, and he has this travelling ban also.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJT:<\/strong>\u00a0Donald J. Trumps is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country\u2019s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0And also, the U.S. accepts very little amount of refugees. You really think, it\u2019s kind of shameful for such a big nation, powerful nation, the most powerful nation on the earth, but rather not bear the responsibility \u2014 do not have the vision, do not have the leadership in dealing with a humanitarian crisis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s your biggest concern in China right now when it comes to basic liberties?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0China has been establishing this new government for sixty-eight years. But still, they never trust it\u2019s own people they never let them vote. They don\u2019t have independent judicial system, and the Army doesn\u2019t belong to the country, but it belongs to the party. And also they don\u2019t have an independent media, you know, it\u2019s always under very heavy censorship, every aspect. And I don\u2019t know how long they can survive that way, but they have always been like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you personally still facing surveillance and monitoring when you\u2019re inside China?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yes, when I\u2019m inside China, I should be the most watched person, or under the most surveillance, strongest surveillance possible, because that\u2019s what they do. And they still see me as a potential dangerous person.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0When you just think about it on a basic level, why are they so afraid of you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0I think I present or reflect this notion of freedom. Individual freedom, and the freedom of speech, and also about creativity, are really questionable in this totalitarian society which really threatens the fundamental possibility for them to stay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0What were your thoughts when it became clear that Donald Trump had won the election and was going to be president of the United States. What was your immediate sort of thought about him?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s the kind of natural outcome of long years, giving up a political consciousness in a general sense. You know, the U.S. has been \u2014 or, not only the U.S., but also Europe has been in peaceful time for decades. And they enjoyed this kind of huge prosperity. But at the same time, intellectually, had given up true ideas or thinking about what globalization is about. So, then, it\u2019s very easy to be used by politicians. For me, it\u2019s not a surprise. Because you can see many, many places in Europe, also, have this kind of trend or tendency to have a far-right moment and come to power.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0When you think about the Chinese government, do you think of it in terms of left wing or right wing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0I think they are all the time right wing. There\u2019s no left wing. Also, there\u2019s no left-wing movement in the society, because, yes, there\u2019s a few figures, which reflect this kind of fight, but it can never be a movement in terms of thinking or argument. You know, there\u2019s no arguing. Whoever comes out is going to be immediately put in jail, or, you know, has no chance.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0China is such a powerful capitalist economy and is making so much of the goods for the United States and no one ever talks about the human rights in China. Trump just talks about, \u201cChina is ripping us off financially.\u201d But the U.S. economy, in large part, runs because of cheap Chinese labor that has at its center no workers\u2019 rights and terrible working conditions. But, in this country, when no one is talking about that, except here and there sometimes you have it. But artists sometimes talk about it, occasionally an article is written, but the main focus on China and the United States is: China\u2019s becoming very powerful and they\u2019re ripping us off financially.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0I think this is since not only this administration, but the previous ones. They enjoy the deals that are made in China, and the profit, and they benefit is huge, because it exploits those nations who don\u2019t have human rights, you know? In many senses, it only can be done when the people as in this kind of situation, they ruin partially by doing this kind of business here ruins the human rights condition and also the environmental pollution is everywhere in China. Food, water, and education is pretty bag, and the government is completely corrupted.<\/p>\n<p>So, of course, the U.S. very clearly knows that, and they enjoy that, you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Right and it\u2019s part of why the United States is able to do what it does in the world, is because they don\u2019t care about those issues.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It\u2019s true. It survives because those nations function like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0As I\u2019ve followed your work over the years, and I always find it so fascinating that you\u2019re perceived as a threat because it feels like the reaction of the Chinese state to you is like from a different era. Like, they\u2019re making you more powerful, more influential because they\u2019re targeting you. And it\u2019s like: why don\u2019t they get that? That their action against you elevates your platform? Are you that big of a threat to them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0I think fundamentally I\u2019m a big threat to any power because I\u2019m questioning the essence of why they\u2019re there, and it\u2019s a very harsh argument and a threat to their existence. But they also sense it because I represent, it\u2019s not me, but I represent the new intention to make a change.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Why do you like working with your phone as vehicle for shooting video?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s just coming into \u2014 I think for artists, you conceptually are always very clear what kind of image you want, and also, you know, you think anything can make an image which can be powerful. That doesn\u2019t have to be super-high quality cameras, which exist everywhere now, but it also can be a simple gesture, or close-range shooting, because filming is almost like a street fight. If you really street fight, you don\u2019t need some powerful weapons. You maybe \u2014 you grab a sand, you use sand you have a brick, you use a brick. It\u2019s really about the moment, and that little thing you have to capture, you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0When you\u2019re in the United States and you\u2019re traveling around, what\u2019s the vibe that you feel? I\u2019m sure it\u2019s different in different places but how does it feel in this country?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0After being back to China from the United States for 20-some years, 24 years, then come back to Europe and the United States, I think this world is really, we are living in different worlds. And, if you go to South America, if you go to Africa, if you go the Middle East, it is really \u2014 we are really living in several different kinds of worlds.<\/p>\n<p>And generally speaking, the people living here are quite spoiled, because of longtime lacking of any kind of challenge, and I think challenge is necessary for, for a nation or an individual. Without challenge, we all become spoiled.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think should be done with all of these people that have had to flee their homes in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia? What would a human response look like to any of this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0I think there are several levels that need to be done. One, is at the top, political level, globally, those leaderships, the powerful nations, they should make a decision to stop the war. You know? To stop the famine, which is not difficult. All those wars, represents the interests from others. As we all know, if we look at the top lists of who is selling those weapons and to whom, you know? It\u2019s just, like, if you follow the money, then you see how this world is moving.<\/p>\n<p>So, the U.S. certainly bears major responsibility in this matter, if you talk about the Iraq war, still, after decades, still Iraq is such a broken state, and they\u2019re still fighting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0And Turkey. I mean the United States sold enormous quantities of weapons and military to Turkey to massacre and expel Kurds.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, Turkey also is a very unstable situation. And many, many nations, it\u2019s not just one or two. And, also in Syria, has all foreign involvement in there, so makes that well, 100,000 people as casualties, and pushes a few million people out. So, if we can\u2019t stop those wars, and continuously build arms and we\u2019re selling arms, what do you expect? All of those are made for killing people. I think the U.S. has been pulling down the bombs, larger than ever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, Trump just used this huge bomb, that they called the MOAB, in Afghanistan. They were bragging about how great this big bomb was.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW<\/strong>: Yeah. So, you can see people celebrating those killings, and also not talk about nuclear warfare. Those potential dangerous threats to humanities are always there, if they have any sincerity or care, they should just dismiss all those nuclear bombs. Now, why we need to have it \u2014 who do they want to kill with those devastating weapons?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Whose work right now do you respect or do you pay attention to, either artists or writers, musicians?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0Sorry to say, I am very much interested in the artist, his name is Ai Weiwei, that\u2019s who I pay full attention to.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Alright. Fair enough. Ai Weiwei, thank you very much for joining us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AW:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Ai Weiwei is a Chinese artist and political dissident. His documentary, human flow, is out now, and his installations in New York City will be up until February 11th of 2018.<\/p>\n<p>[Musical interlude]<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0After more than two decades of being a band, the veteran indie rock quartet Deerhoof thought they\u2019d try something different. Two weeks before their fourteenth LP, Mountain Moves, was set to drop, they surprise released it on their website at a pay-what-you-want price. The entirety of the proceeds were then donated to the Emergent Fund, a nonprofit that benefits campaigns whose missions are to defend the rights of vulnerable communities.<\/p>\n<p>It could be said that the unpredictability of Deerhoof is both an ode to their solidly leftist do-it-yourself principles and idiosyncratic music, which seems to joyfully gallop between art pop and punk, and is something entirely of their own vibrant creation.<\/p>\n<p>[\u201cMountain Moves\u201d by Deerhoof]<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0Our producer Jack D\u2019Isidoro spoke with Deerhoof\u2019s Greg Saunier about the songs of Mountain Moves, and the power of creativity during the Trump moment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Greg Saunier:<\/strong>\u00a0This is Greg, the drummer from Deerhoof. Yes, I would say that on Mountain Moves, maybe we were trying to be political with the songs. But we\u2019ve had a lot of songs about war, a lot of songs about immigration. Our singer Satomi Matsuzaki is a first-generation immigrant from Japan to the U.S.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s like we\u2019d like to make music that would make a person want to sit up straight, and like give them some energy, give them some strength, when there are many things in their day-to-day existence that are not only sapping their energy, but meant to sap their energy. There\u2019s an economy of hopelessness, of producing hopelessness, that people are making money by creating hopelessness, creating a feeling of being overwhelmed and feeling that to even envision something better than what we have is completely preposterous and unrealistic and should be abandoned immediately.<\/p>\n<p>[\u201cYour Dystopic Creation Doesn\u2019t Fear You\u201d by Deerhoof]<\/p>\n<p>\u201cYour Dystopic Creation Doesn\u2019t Fear You\u201d is kind of, I don\u2019t know, I just remember how much fear-mongering was the strategy of both parties. Both candidates were simply trying to scare people into voting for them by saying how scary it\u2019s going to be if the other person is president.<\/p>\n<p>And I felt that our intelligence was being insulted 24 hours a day, for months, and being projected at maximum volume by the corporate media.<\/p>\n<p>[\u201cYour Dystopic Creation Doesn\u2019t Fear You\u201d by Deerhoof]<\/p>\n<p><strong>GS:<\/strong>\u00a0\u201cI Will Spite Survive.\u201d You know, obviously it\u2019s kind of a joke on the, \u201cI Will Survive,\u201d the disco-era hit. I mean that song was chorus like a kind of anthem about surviving a bad breakup. This one is more like meant to be a kind of anthem about surviving a government, that, depending on who you are, would prefer you to be dead. If you\u2019re someone who\u2019s sick or injured, it\u2019d be better if you would die. If you are the wrong race or wrong religion, it would be better if you were dead. And if you can survive long enough for the people currently flush with wealth and power to, themselves, pass away, then there\u2019s some hope that the future may be better.<\/p>\n<p>And so, it\u2019s kind of a message to them to please stay strong and stay alive if you can. So, anyway, here\u2019s that song: \u201cI Will Spite Survive.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>[\u201cI Will Spite Survive\u201d by Deerhoof]<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>You could outlive your executioners<\/p>\n<p>You could outlive your executioners<\/p>\n<p>You could outlive your executioners<\/p>\n<p>You could outlive your executioners<\/p>\n<p>But you\u2019re on TV, you\u2019re expendable<\/p>\n<p>But you\u2019re on TV, you\u2019re expendable<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Sleep at night, if you can stay alive<\/p>\n<p>Sleep at night, if you can stay alive<\/p>\n<p>Stay alive, if you can sleep at night<\/p>\n<p>Stay alive, if you can sleep at night<\/p>\n<p>City breaks, if you can stay awake<\/p>\n<p>Let her dance, all night long!<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>You could outlive your executioners<\/p>\n<p>You could outlive your executioners<\/p>\n<p>But you\u2019re on TV, you\u2019re expendable<\/p>\n<p>But you\u2019re on TV, you\u2019re expendable<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Sleep at night, if you can stay alive<\/p>\n<p>Sleep at night, if you can stay alive<\/p>\n<p>Stay alive, if you can sleep at night<\/p>\n<p>Stay alive, if you can sleep at night<\/p>\n<p>City breaks, if you can stay awake<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Outlive your executioners<\/p>\n<p>Outlive your executioners<\/p>\n<p>Outlive your executioners<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>JS:<\/strong>\u00a0That was \u201cI Will Spite Survive\u201d by the band Deerhoof and if you go to our episode page, we have an exclusive first look at their music video for the song. You can check it out at theintercept.com\/podcasts.<\/p>\n<p>And that does it for this week\u2019s show. Intercepted is a production of First Look Media and The Intercept. We\u2019re distributed by Panoply.<\/p>\n<p>Our producer is Jack D\u2019Isidoro, and our Executive Producer is Leital Molad. Rick Kwan mixed the show. Laura Flynn is our associate producer. Elise Swain is our production assistant and graphic designer. Our music, as always, was composed by DJ Spooky.<\/p>\n<p>Until next week, I\u2019m Jeremy Scahill.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><a class=\"InstreamPromo\" href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/podcasts\/donate\/?campaign=70146000000pcWVAAY\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.4.$promote-large-podcast-1\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/cdn01.theintercept.com\/wp-uploads\/sites\/1\/2017\/10\/Intercepted-support-16x9-1508348089-promo.jpg\" alt=\"We depend on our community of listeners to keep the Intercepted podcast strong and independent.\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.4.$promote-large-podcast-1.0\" \/><span class=\"InstreamPromo-text\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.4.$promote-large-podcast-1.1\"><span class=\"InstreamPromo-callout\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.4.$promote-large-podcast-1.1.0\">SUPPORT OUR PODCAST<\/span><span class=\"InstreamPromo-title\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.4.$promote-large-podcast-1.1.1\">We depend on our community of listeners to keep the Intercepted podcast strong and independent.<\/span><\/span><\/a><\/p>\n<div data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.4.$p-2\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"RelatedPosts\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.6\">\n<div data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.6.0\">\n<h4 class=\"RelatedPosts-header\" data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.6.0.0\"><span data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.6.0.0.0\">RELATED<\/span><\/h4>\n<div data-reactid=\".ti.1.0.1.2.0.0.1.0.6.0.1\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u00a0Photos: The Manchurian Candidate 1962, Getty Images (Pence) Photo Illustration: Elise Swain for The Intercept Intercepted October 25 2017 (theintercept.com) SUBSCRIBE TO THE INTERCEPTED PODCAST ON\u00a0APPLE PODCASTS,GOOGLE PLAY,\u00a0STITCHER, AND\u00a0OTHER PLATFORMS. 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